No, I’m not talking about having sinful nature. However, I agree with you that believers can attain unto prefall sinlessness as described by Ellen in the following passage:

Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts (MS 122, 1901). {6BC 1118.10} End Quote

The weaknesses and imperfections and defects I’m talking about above relate to the old man traits of character believers cultivated prior to experiencing the miracle of rebirth. How would you answer my question above with this in mind?


I didn’t see where you answered this question.


I agree that the books you named above are helpful in detecting sin in all its subtly and deceitfulness. But they were also written a long time ago. Many new forms and species of sins have stealthfully worked their way into the church and in the hearts and minds of believers. Compromises have been made over the years, so much so that many believers no longer view certain behaviors as sinful. The book Creeping Compromises unmasks sin in a way the books you named do not. BTW, why do you think “primarily because of a wrong emphasis” applies to this book?


It’s too bad you cannot summarize the “message” as you see it in a few words. It must be because your understanding of it is too complicated.

Here is how Ellen summarized the “message”:

The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His people through Elders [E.J.] Waggoner and [A. T.] Jones. This message was to bring more prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. {LDE 200.1}

Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family. All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the helpless human agent. This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large measure.--TM 91, 92 (1895). {LDE 200.2} End Quote

There is absolutely nothing complicated about the "message" as it was understood and summarized by Ellen. It is simple and to the point. It encourages "people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." That's all there is to it, Tom. Nothing complicated. It can be easily summarized in 21 words.

I don't know what you're asking. I believe that we who have sinful natures can overcome sin completely. I don't understand why there is a need to know more than this.



You're asking if those who do not obey what Jesus Christ commanded are unlike Him to the extent that they disobey Him? If this is what you're asking, I agree.



I really shouldn't speak to specifically about the book since I haven't read it. So I'll just say in general terms, based on what I've heard about it, it appears to me to have an emphasis on certain types of obedience as opposed to the emphasis that Jones and Waggoner had, and the 2 EGW books I mentioned have, which are more related to God's character revealed in Christ. Again, however, I wish to qualify my response here as I have not read the book in question, so it wouldn't be fair of me to be too critical of something I've not read, but again, based on comments others have made, this is how things appear to me.



Or perhaps your request is simplistic. We could summarize the Gospel as "God loves you!" couldn't we? Or just quote John 3:16. That summarizes the Gospel in a few words. But how useful is that?

God has given us a a message, which a prophet has identified as such, a message of God to the Laodicean church, a message identified as light that will enlighten the earth with glory. We are over and over enjoined to take heed of this message. This is done by reading and studying what the messengers communicated, not by the second-hand regurgitation of their message by someone else.



How about 3? "God loves you!" No need to understand Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary, the Sabbath, the Great Controversy, etc.



The "this truth" referred to at the beginning of the paragraph is the following:



I don't see where your 21 word summary mentions this (And this is just one thing! The idea that a couple-word summary can is adequate to encapsulate the light God was sending us for years is altogether too facile).

The sinful traits and tendencies we inherited at birth isn’t all there is to it. Before we fell in love with Jesus and embraced Him as our personal Friend and Savior we cultivated many of those traits and tendencies and turned them into defective traits of character. Paul refers to these imperfections as the “old man”. Yes, he says we crucify our old man habits and traits when we experience the miracle of rebirth, nevertheless, they constitute weaknesses, defects, and imperfections we must forever thereafter fight to subdue. We must, through faith in Jesus, labor to prevent them from resurfacing.

I’m suggesting these defects, weaknesses, and imperfections are liabilities we carry with us into the new life of faith in Christ. They represent a potential problem we must work diligently to keep under the control of a sanctified will and mind. I am also saying they do not count as sin against us so long as we faithfully abide in Jesus, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, not allowing ourselves to resurrect the old man and resume sinning.

Do you agree? Or, do you feel God counts us guilty of sin because we are born again with these defects, weaknesses, and imperfections laying like a monster just beneath the surface ready to resurface as sin the instant we fail to abide in Jesus?


I’m speaking specifically about 1) those believers who experienced rebirth after they learned how to obey every Jesus commanded, and 2) those believers who experienced rebirth before they learned how to obey every Jesus commanded. The people in the first group are more like Jesus than the people in the second group. The people in the second group are unlike Jesus in those ways and ideas they are unaware misrepresent Him.

For example, most Christians experience rebirth before they realize smoking, drinking, common law relationships, Sabbath-breaking, and believing in false doctrines like the natural immortality of the soul, eternal torment, and the secret rapture misrepresent Jesus. However, in spite of these things, God views them as worthy of a place in heaven. Do you agree?


Thank you for clarifying that you haven’t read the book. I read it again recently and believe it does a great job of maintaining the beautiful balance between faith and works. It reads like the Snares of Satan in the first edition of the GC, that is, it unmasks Satan’s end-time strategy for deceiving people into receiving the mark of beast. Little by little he leads believers from one small compromise with the world to the next one until they are more like the world than like Jesus. He quotes extensively from the Bible and the SOP. It’s a short book, a quick read online. If you read it let me know what you think.


I agree that John 3:16 summarizes the gospel nicely. But this isn’t saying the rest of the Bible is useless. God forbid.


Do you include the SOP as a secondhand regurgitated source of truth? You should be able to answer this question with a simple yes or no.


Here is the rest of the quote:

"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Gal. 3:24). In this scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law. The law reveals sin to us, and causes us to feel our need of Christ and to flee unto Him for pardon and peace by exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. An unwillingness to yield up preconceived opinions, and to accept this truth, lay at the foundation of a large share of the opposition manifested at Minneapolis against the Lord's message through Brethren {E.J.} Waggoner and {A.T.} Jones. (1 SM 234, 235) End Quote

She is addressing the debate over whether or not the law in Galatians is primarily the moral or ceremonial law. Those who believed it was especially the ceremonial law were unable to appreciate the message God sent through J&W. That message is described in the following passage:

The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His people through Elders [E.J.] Waggoner and [A. T.] Jones. This message was to bring more prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. {LDE 200.1}

Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family. All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the helpless human agent. This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large measure.--TM 91, 92 (1895). {LDE 200.2} End Quote

This precious message encourages "people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." It’s not the idea that the schoolmaster in Galatians is especially the moral law. I agree with you that disagreement on this point prevented certain people from fully appreciating the message God sent to them through J&W – but this particular point is not essence of “the” message.

Do you see what I mean?

I don't see how God could count anyone guilty of sin due to something out of their control.



This makes no sense to me. This implies one can learn how to obey all of Jesus' commands without being converted. I don't think you can keep *any* of them without being converted.



I think the number of people in the first group is 0.



Except there are no such people.



I don't think the things you mention are what God is mostly concerned about. Selfishness and pride are the really big things, I think. I don't think God thinks in terms of people being worthy of a place in heaven, but in terms of if a given person would be happy in heaven. I think people can be happy in heaven even though they did the things or had the views you mentioned (assuming, of course, they were unaware of these things being wrong).



This part of the description sounds like "The Screwtape Letters" by C. S. Lewis, which I have read and enjoyed.



And the same logic would apply to Jones and Waggoner. The SOP said (in reference to Jones and Waggoner) that she would be as a little child, receiving all the light God had to give. I think that's the right attitude.



I was responding to your request that I give you some summary in a few words. You would be much better served going to the original source.



No, I had myself in mind.

Regarding the 1SM 234, 235 quote, I think you missed my point. She wrote:



She then said:



The "this truth" is the part I quoted just above. Your summary said nothing about "this truth."

And, again, this is just one example. There are many things your summary omitted, of which I mentioned a few.

In light of what I wrote above what are you saying is “out of their control”? Please elaborate.


Are you suggesting no one can learn how to obey everything Jesus commanded before they experience rebirth? Or, are you suggesting no one can obey any of His commands before they experience rebirth?


Are you suggesting the second group doesn’t exist either?


Are you suggesting no one can “learn how to obey” (as opposed to obey) Jesus’ commands?


Does this mean you agree with me that these kinds of people are unlike Jesus in the ways you and I named above?


It also reads this way in Creeping Compromises. I have Screwtape on my Ipod read by John Cleese. Totally awesome!


I agree. But this attitude shouldn’t prevent us being able to summarize things succinctly.


Does this mean you agree with me that the SOP is a primary source of truth, that “the message” God sent through J&W is also contained in the SOP? Or, would you say the SOP is a secondhand regurgitated source of “the message”?


The “precious message” encourages "people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." It’s not the idea that the schoolmaster in Galatians is especially the moral law. Disagreeing with this idea merely prevented certain people from receiving the “precious message”.

The defects, weaknesses, etc. which you enumerate as being caused by having sinned.



Yes, of course! The law is spiritual. One must be converted to obey it.



Both. I said, "I don't think you can keep *any* of them without being converted."



I said, "first group," not "second group."



I was saying there are no people in the first group. That is, there is nobody who does all that Jesus Christ has commanded without being converted.



You're asking me if one behaves contrary to the way that Jesus said we should behave if this means they are unlike Jesus Christ to the extent that they do this? If so, of course, yes. However, I don't think the things you mentioned are the important things.



I'll bet that would be.



The SOP wrote over 100,000 pages. Yes, it's nice to be able to summarize things succinctly, but we should also take advantage of the light the Lord has so graciously sent us, light which the SOP referred to as a "most precious message."

To succinctly summarize the Gospel, I would say, "God is just like Jesus Christ."



I'm not sure what you mean by "primary source of truth." Whatever that means, I think it applies to Jones and Waggoner as much as to her. She repeatedly refers to them as "messengers from God" and their message as a "message from God." She said to reject their message was to reject Jesus Christ.

The secondhand regurgitated comment I made was in reaction to your request that I summarize their message in a couple of words. I said you should read what they wrote, and still say this. She said the same thing. She *never* said that her writings should be read in lieu of theirs.

In what sense are these cultivated and crucified weaknesses, defects, and imperfections, which lay just below the surface ready to resurface the instant we fail to abide in Jesus, "out of their control"? Do you mean out their control in the sense they exist?


Surely you agree with me that it is possible to learn how to obey everything Jesus command without actually having the ability or power to obey. Knowing what and how to obey is totally different than actually obeying. Do you agree? There are plenty of people of who know what they should do and many of them understand what it takes to do it, but most of them are so preoccupied with the world that they fail to obey.

Yes.



Actually I don't agree. Since the law is spiritual, one must be spiritual to obey it, which means being born again. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned, so they cannot even be understood without being spiritual.

It seems like you may be looking at obeying Jesus' commands in a narrow sense, such as do this, don't do that. But much of what Jesus taught has to do with the inner man, things like don't store your treasure on earth, but in heaven, don't worry for today but trust your heavenly Father will take care of you, love your enemies, things like that. Jesus said, "the kingdom of God is within you," so the very first step to do all the things Jesus commanded is to be converted.

I'd agree that some of the all things which Jesus commanded could be understood by an unconverted person, but nowhere close to all.

I think they could be led to understand it, but they certainly wouldn't believe that living in harmony with all of it would be beneficial. Can you name something that would be impossible to grasp intellectually, something that requires rebirth to grasp intellectually?

BTW, I am not omitting the godly things you named above from my understanding of what it means to be reborn in the likeness of Jesus.

I gave some examples in the previous post. Consider things from the standpoint that Paul said that spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Another thing to consider would be Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. For example:



I should add that the problem is not grasping things intellectually, but grasping the spiritual meaning of what Jesus taught. To obey the all things which Jesus Christ commanded involves more than intellectually grasping certain things.

Another thing to consider are Christ's disciples. With the exception of Judas, they were all converted, but they didn't understand much of what Jesus Christ was teaching. If even those who are converted need time to understand Jesus' teachings, what hope would someone have who is not even converted?