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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#107967
02/07/09 06:41 PM
02/07/09 06:41 PM
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This is just one aspect of God's perspective that has a bearing on this prophecy. The other one is that of interpretation. Mrs. White, just like Paul and others, fully believed that Christ would come in her day. Paul said: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep." (1 Thessalonians 4:15) Clearly, Paul expected some in his day to be alive when Christ came again. May God bless,
Green Cochoa.
i have to respectfully disagree. paul seemed to know quite clearly that Christ was not coming in his day, as did all the bible writers. their writings were not because they did not "understand" but because we are to live as if Christ could come any minute. the burden and urgency of all the writers of the bible and sop has been for us to not live half in the world and half in heaven. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: teresaq]
#107985
02/08/09 12:09 AM
02/08/09 12:09 AM
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In response to the last few posts, we should look at what else EGW said about this from Friday's section: “As the subject was presented before me, the period of Christ’s ministration seemed almost accomplished. Am I accused of falsehood because time has continued longer than my testimony seemed to indicate? How is it with the testimonies of Christ and His disciples? Were they deceived? Paul writes to the Corinthians: ‘But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; and they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not’ (1 Cor. 7:29, 30).
“Again, in his epistle to the Romans, he says: ‘The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light’ (Rom. 13:12). . . .
“The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.”—Ellen G. White, Selected Messages, book 1, p. 67.
Does anybody wish to comment on the above EGW quote?
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Daryl]
#107990
02/08/09 01:04 AM
02/08/09 01:04 AM
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Daryl,
I certainly agree that Paul appears to have believed Christ would return in his day. I'm sure the disciples thought so too after two angels had told them "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
Couple this with Christ's own words to the disciples: "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." In fact, the next verse explicitly tells us what the disciples thought of this: "Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die...."
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#107997
02/08/09 03:09 AM
02/08/09 03:09 AM
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Daryl,
I certainly agree that Paul appears to have believed Christ would return in his day. I'm sure the disciples thought so too after two angels had told them "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
Couple this with Christ's own words to the disciples: "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me." In fact, the next verse explicitly tells us what the disciples thought of this: "Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die...."
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. the last half of that verse gives reason to believe differently. Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; the question that comes to me is why we have chosen to believe they believed Jesus would return in their day given, what seems clear to me, bible evidence to the contrary?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: teresaq]
#108005
02/08/09 06:41 AM
02/08/09 06:41 AM
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Teresa,
The clarification at the end of the verse which you have filled in appears to me to be merely an affirmation that Jesus had not said exactly what they had assumed, but it does not contradict the fact that the disciples had made the incorrect assumption. As John is the one writing this, he is careful to correct the statement on his behalf, but makes no blanket statement as to whether or not other disciples might also live to see Christ's return.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#108006
02/08/09 06:57 AM
02/08/09 06:57 AM
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Teresa,
To elaborate, my point had to do with what the disciples believed, and not so much with what the "Bible" teaches. This is why I quoted only the part sufficient to show their belief in my earlier post. As another example, it is clear that the Bible teaches, and always taught, that the Messiah would come as a humble man who would be led to the slaughter. In spite of this, the disciples, even up to the Last Supper and Christ's betrayal, believed that Jesus would free them from the yoke of the Romans.
In other words, what the Bible authors BELIEVED, and what the Bible TEACHES, including what the prophets themselves may have taught, are not always the same.
Tell me, what would YOU think if you heard Jesus saying the following to you, in person, just before He ascends up into Heaven?
"And, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."
Don't you think you would have taken that message personally?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#108007
02/08/09 08:07 AM
02/08/09 08:07 AM
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Teresa,
To elaborate, my point had to do with what the disciples believed, and not so much with what the "Bible" teaches. This is why I quoted only the part sufficient to show their belief in my earlier post. As another example, it is clear that the Bible teaches, and always taught, that the Messiah would come as a humble man who would be led to the slaughter. In spite of this, the disciples, even up to the Last Supper and Christ's betrayal, believed that Jesus would free them from the yoke of the Romans.
In other words, what the Bible authors BELIEVED, and what the Bible TEACHES, including what the prophets themselves may have taught, are not always the same.
Tell me, what would YOU think if you heard Jesus saying the following to you, in person, just before He ascends up into Heaven?
"And, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."
Don't you think you would have taken that message personally?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: teresaq]
#108011
02/08/09 11:49 AM
02/08/09 11:49 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Teresa,
To elaborate, my point had to do with what the disciples believed, and not so much with what the "Bible" teaches. This is why I quoted only the part sufficient to show their belief in my earlier post. As another example, it is clear that the Bible teaches, and always taught, that the Messiah would come as a humble man who would be led to the slaughter. In spite of this, the disciples, even up to the Last Supper and Christ's betrayal, believed that Jesus would free them from the yoke of the Romans.
In other words, what the Bible authors BELIEVED, and what the Bible TEACHES, including what the prophets themselves may have taught, are not always the same.
Tell me, what would YOU think if you heard Jesus saying the following to you, in person, just before He ascends up into Heaven?
"And, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."
Don't you think you would have taken that message personally?
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? Teresa, The text you present appears to my mind to be able to be interpreted one of two ways. Either Paul is saying God's coming is a long way off, or he's saying it is near. Because grammatically this is what grammarians would call a "dangling modifier," it leaves the meaning of the phrase ambiguous. Also, the entire phrase "that day shall not come" was supplied by the translators and is not in the original text. However, there are other references, both from Paul and from several other New Testament authors, which tell us they believed these final events were very near. Comparing other texts helps clear up these kinds of ambiguity that we might have when looking at one passage alone. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. (James 5:8)
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Revelation 22:20)
For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. (Hebrews 10:37)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: (Revelation 1:1)
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. (Revelation 3:11)
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (2 Peter 3:12-13) Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108035
02/08/09 08:28 PM
02/08/09 08:28 PM
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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In other words, what the Bible authors BELIEVED, and what the Bible TEACHES, including what the prophets themselves may have taught, are not always the same. This is a good point. Could it apply to Ellen White as well?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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