Given that we can hinder people from responding to God's influence and embracing Jesus by the way we treat them, and given that prayer can help us treat others better and do a better job of not hindering them from God's influence, it follows that prayer can make a difference to someone else's salvation.

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Quote of previous post removed as it isn't necessary in the reply to the previous post. - Daryl

[ September 17, 2004, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Agreed. But my point is more basic. Whether we pray or not does not change the fact that God is doing everything necessary, everything He can, to win and woo souls. He's not waiting for us to pray for people in order to do everything He can to ifluence them to accept Jesus as their personal Saviour. True, our influence can hinder them, but it doesn't mean God isn't doing everything necessary to save them. It's a basic point.

Surely God is doing "everything He can" and for the reasons you gave. However everything God can do is limited by us. It didn't have to be that way, but God in His sovereignty has created a world where He is influenced by and limited by our actions. (e.g. we can hasten or tardy the coming of Christ)

If we cooperate with God, He can do more than if we don't.

Given the premise that God will do things He would not have done because we prayed, there are innumerable ways in which are prayers can possibly result in the salvation of souls.

1) I can pray for myself, that I do not hinder the work that God is already doing for my loved one.
2) I can pray for you, a fellow believer, that you will not hinder the work that God is already doing for my loved one.
3) If my loved one is sick, I can pray that God will heal him/her. That healing may result in the opportunity to hear and believe the Gospel at some future time, which wouldn't have happened had my loved one not gotten well.

I could add a lot more, but I think that's enough to establish the point.

If our prayers did not influence God, what would be the point of intercessory prayer?

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Quote of previous post removed as it isn't necessary in the reply to the previous post. - Daryl

[ September 17, 2004, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Again, agreed. But then you wrote:

quote:

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However everything God can do is limited by us.

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This is the part I'm not so sure about. So far as doing everything God can do to woo and win souls for His kingdom, I am convinced we can do nothing to alter this work - that is, the wooing part. In other words, God is going to woo them the same way no matter what we do. True, our actions may hinder some people from accepting Jesus, but our actions in no way changes the way God is wooing them.

When I pray for others I pray with the knowledge that God is, and has been, doing everything He can to woo and win my loved ones. I thank Him for everything He is doing, rather than plead with Him to do what He is already doing.

Regarding specific requests that have nothing to do with saving souls (i.e., what car to buy, where to go to college, etc) I trust God to bless my decisions, which are usually based on diligent research. And when it comes to things like medical miracles, I always pray - Thy will be done.

In such cases, do my prayers influence the mind and actions of God? Do my prayers change God's mind and intended actions? Can my prayers alter the future contrary to prophecy?

God does change his mind because of prayer....we have examples of that> Moses, Jonah. Sometime he answers before we ask, somtimes he will not answer..unless we ask. Satan needs to see that God does not have favorites, god can point to a fervent prayer and say "they asked me!" How do we recieve the Holy Spirit??? We are told to "ask"! Who gives Good Gifts if we ask? Ask is active and faith needs to be exercised in order to grow.

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald---DT- 08-23-92
If we would accomplish the great work before us, it is essential that we present to God fervent and effectual prayer; for it availeth much. The prayer needed at this time is the earnest, unbroken, continuous prayer, not fitful, uncertain prayers, wavering as the waves of the sea. If several should meet
together with one accord, with hearts burdened for perishing souls, and should offer earnest, fervent prayers, they would prove effectual. Brethren, why not pray more in faith, in child-like simplicity, since our rightful place is at the very feet of God? There self is lost sight of, self is not exalted. There we acknowledge our entire dependence upon God, rendering the homage due unto his great name, which is expressed in the words of the Lord's
prayer, "Hallowed be thy name." Act this sentiment out, act this truth, bring it into your practical life, and thus the soul will be drawn out after God, thus we shall be kept in active communion with the source of all grace and
power. In all our councils, all our plans for the advancement of his cause, the upbuilding of his kingdom, God desires that we rely entirely upon his power, knowing that it is indispensable to success. How can we honor God, how can we vindicate his word, unless we are much in prayer, appealing to him to manifest his power in behalf of the perishing?

Jam 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

We should know what it means to be a Righteous man......and what is the meaning of "availeth much"?


Christ's Object Lessons-- Asking to Give----PG- 145

"God does not say, Ask once, and you shall receive. He bids us ask. Unwearyingly persist in prayer. The persistent asking brings the petitioner into a more earnest attitude, and gives him an increased desire to receive the things for which he asks. Christ said to Martha at the grave of Lazarus, "If thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God." John 11:40.


I love this example:

The Signs of the Times----- 05-28-96
And Shall Not God Avenge His Own Elect?
By Mrs. E. G. White.
-
" The Saviour manifested divine compassion toward the Syro-Phenician woman. His heart was touched with pitying tenderness, as he saw her woe and grief. He longed to give her an immediate assurance that her prayer was heard, and her request fulfilled; but he desired to teach his disciples a lesson; and for a short period of time he seemed to act out the feelings that prompted them, and neglected the cry of her heart. He acted towards her in the same manner as the Pharisees taught the people to act toward all such so-called heathen. Christ even repulsed her. He knew the heart of the woman. He knew what sorrow pressed upon her soul, and understood her persistent determination not to be driven away until her request was granted. When she made known her request to Christ, he said, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto dogs." But she had an answer ready, and said, "The dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from the master's table." This
is all I ask. Give me the privilege of eating the crumbs that fall from the table. Did she go away empty and discouraged?--No, she received her request. The Lord commended her for her great faith, and sent her away with the precious boon she had asked. He then turned to his disciples and said, "I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel." Did the disciples ever
forget this lesson?--No. This case is placed on record to show what is the result of persevering in presenting our needs to the Hearer of prayer. Of Christ it was written. "The bruised reed shall he not break, the smoking flax shall he not quench." No soul will be left to perish who asks in faith for
the help of Christ. The weakest, the most struggling soul, may live, and find hope and sufficiency in God. When Jesus comes into the storm and the darkness, midnight is as bright as noonday. The faith that recognizes Christ leads the soul to rest implicitly upon the promises, because God is behind them. There is hope for the most desponding. Those who take Christ at his
word, who surrender their souls to his keeping, their lives to his ordering, will find peace, quietude, and rest. He will impart grace to the needy soul. "


Praise His name

I'm not sure I can state my position adequately. I realize that the importunate prayers of godly people do make a difference. No doubt about it. But in cases involving the salvation of souls, I do not believe prayer, or the lack thereof, is going to make God work harder. I do not believe God is waiting for me to pray before He chooses to do everything possible to woo and win souls. Yes, prayer is beneficial and absolutely crucial, but it's not going to change how hard God works to save souls. With or without me God is doing everything He can to save souls. The salvation of souls does not depend on my prayers. We are not co-Saviours. Prayer changes me, not God.

Romans
5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

COL 143
Prayer is not to work any change in God; it is to bring us into harmony with God.

SC 93
Prayer is the opening of the heart to God as to a friend. Not that it is necessary in order to make known to God what we are, but in order to enable us to receive Him. Prayer does not bring God down to us, but brings us up to Him.

SC 96
But to claim that prayer will always be answered in the very way and for the particular thing that we desire, is presumption. God is too wise to err, and too good to withhold any good thing from them that walk uprightly.

There is no question that prayer doesn't change God as far as His character is concerned, which is what the quotes you cited are getting at. God is perfect, and loves us with inestamitable love. However, He has voluntarily exercized His soverignty (a bit redundant here) in such a way that He is effected by the things that we do. Specifically our prayers can and do influence God, and that includes the salvation of souls.

Once again, here is a specific example. Person A is on the point of death. Person A is not right with God. Person A will die unless prayed for. Person A is prayed for, and continues to live instead of being dead. God cannot influence or woo a dead person, so if person A had not been prayed for, he would have been lost.

The statement in James that says the effective prayer of a righteous person accomplishes much says specifically that prayer can lead to forgiveness. That clearly involves the salvation of souls. It is in God's order that He will do things that He otherwise would not have done because we pray (from the Spirit of Prophesy, but can't find the referece -- would appreciate the reference if someone else can find it).

Here's another example. We need to prayer for ourselves, for the reasons you quoted. Say we refuse to do that, which results in God not being able to use us. Say there are those in our lives who we can influence as noone else can. If we refuse to cooperate with God, then we prevent Him from working through us. Thus our lack of prayer has an influence in God's work of the salvation of souls.

It's not that God is unwilling, or there is any flaw in His character that He has to be encouraged to do something which He doesn't want to do, but we are in the midst of a Great Controversy which is being fought under a set of rules, one of which is that God will do things that He otherwise would not have done because we pray.

Now I agree that a prayer like, "God, save my loved one" would not be worth praying. In fact, if we prayed "God, why don't you do something to save My loved one?" He would likely respond, "I've been trying, but you keep getting in the way!". So a more effective prayer might be, "God, help me not to get in the way of what you're doing to save my loved one. Help me to perceive what you're doing, and to cooperate with you. Reveal to me what it is I can do to better reflect Your character." This is a prayer which can have an impact in the saving of souls.

It looks like I've been an 'open view' disciple for a while. I don't see the difference in what we've understood, not so far.

I'm not necessarily asking for more specifics either. The dynamic between God and us varies between people and the dynamic itself is a mystery. We don't know exactly how the spirit works on hearts. We see the results, but don't know the exact mechanism - what role the individual's emotion and reason play and how or where prayer by a third party can supernaturally and/or naturally change or influence the thought processes etc. It might be a fruitful study but we should realize our limitation in understanding the dynamic.