Your questions are predicated on the assumption that God causes death and destruction, which I think is a false assumption. As EGW points out:





By the same logic, God is culpable of all evil. Is this what you think?



No, I'm not saying the story illustrates that the Jews understood God's will concerning the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. I explained what I think the story is addressing.



Again, I quoted Ellen White. Here was my main point:



Do you agree with this?

An example of this method of causing death and destruction is the Flood. Their sins did not cause water above and below the earth to burst forth and kill everyone and everything. God, of course, employs other methods of causing death and destruction. He is not limited to one method.

You view God as employing different methods of causing death and destruction. You see God's actions as portrayed in GC chapter 1 as one of the methods God uses.

I see some difficulties with this idea. First of all, it doesn't take into account principles like the following:

1.God does not use force to overcome rebellion.
2.Force is not a principle of God's government.
3.Force is the last resort of every false religion.
4.Jesus Christ revealed all that man can know about God.
5.God is the restorer; Satan is the destroyer.

The whole idea that God is the One who causes death and destruction is false. God restores and Satan destroys. Satan is the author of sin and all of its results, which include death and destruction. Death and destruction come as a result of choosing Satan's ways over God's.

Correct.


My views are in total harmony with these principles.


I disagree. The Flood is an example of God causing death and destruction. Someone might argue that the forces of nature destroyed the world and killed sinners, which, of course, is true. However, someone else could falsely argue that it was the bullet that killed the thief not the vigilante. The point is - God wields the forces of nature that cause death and destruction. Listen:

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. {PP 109.1}

The bowels of the earth were the Lord's arsenal, from which he drew forth the weapons he employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters in the bowels of the earth gushed forth, and united with the waters from Heaven, to accomplish the work of destruction. Since the flood, God has used both water and fire in the earth as his agents to destroy wicked cities. {3SG 82.2}

As he called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the flood, as weapons from his arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years he will call forth the fires in the earth as his weapons which he has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the flood. {3SG 87.1}


Are you suggesting evil angels are responsible for causing all the death and destruction recorded throughout the Bible?

In what sense was God acting as a “restorer” when He withdrew His protection and permitted the forces of nature to destroy the world and to kill sinners? Was He “restoring” the world to its former state of righteousness by allowing the Flood to rid the world of sinners?


One point at a time, please. Do you agree the pigs were safe until Jesus gave evil angels permission to drown them? Or, do you think the evil angels killed the pigs in violation Jesus’ command not to do so?


My question concerns why you think God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Your story illustrates God taking the risk of being misunderstood but it doesn’t explain why God commanded Moses to kill those two guys.

So, again, here are my questions – Why do you think God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer? Why did He take the risk of being misunderstood? Why didn’t He take the risk of sharing His true feelings about capital punishment? What would have happened if God had simply told them the truth about capital punishment instead of commanding Moses to kill sinners?


I do not believe God ever caved in to pressure and permitted sinners to practice sin contrary to His will and law. The fact God permitted the Jews to practice polygamy, get divorced, and to have a king is evidence such things are not sinful in and of themselves. They were, nevertheless, contrary to God’s ideal will and desire for them. Do you agree?

Or, do you think God permitted the Jews to practice sin contrary to His ideal will and desire for them? If so, why would He do such a thing? Was it to make Himself look better? Listen:

Romans
3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

It's pretty amazing to me that you can think so. For example, you believe exactly that God used force to overcome rebellion, even violent force. Regarding principle #4, you've been denying this the whole time. Regarding #5, you say that God uses various methods to cause destruction. Causing destruction makes one a destroyer.



Right, we disagree on this. I see God as the restorer, and Satan as the destroyer. You see God as using multiple ways to cause death and destruction.



In the sense that Satan is the author of sin and all its results, yes. One of the purposes of the GC is to reveal that God is not responsible for any evil that happens.



I'm not sure what you mean by "its former state of righteousness," but this was basically what God was doing. Justice in Scripture has to do with restoring the covenant community to shalom. However, the context in which God is described as "restorer" has to do with His restoring those who desire such, as God highly respects free will.

MM, I'm interested in how you will address Tom's above questions. For I too am speechless how you can say you agree God causes death and destruction, yet say "My views are in total harmony with these principles" relating to the above 5 list especially emphasizing the word "force". Could you describe how someone could cause death and destruction without force?

The way I see it, it is the same as I mentioned relating to "Brave New World", which you never said if you had read or not. If not, you won't know what I'm talking about. The idea is called, "double-speak". Maybe you've heard of that.

I do not believe God used violent force to overcome rebellion. I do not deny #4. Nor am I at odds with #5. Your translation of my views is biased and inaccurate which explains why you feel the way you do about my views.


What are you labeling as “evil”? Are you suggesting things like the Flood are evil? Are you suggesting Satan is the one who employed the forces of nature to cause the death and destruction related to the Flood? Are you suggesting sin is what caused the forces of nature to destroy the planet and to kill sinners? Are you suggesting God had nothing to do with the Flood? What do you mean when you say Satan is responsible for causing all the death and destruction recorded in the Bible?


Again, in what sense was God acting as a “restorer” when He withdrew His protection and permitted the forces of nature to destroy the world and to kill sinners? What did He restore? What was restored when the planet was destroyed and when sinners were killed?

One point at a time, please. Do you agree the pigs were safe until Jesus gave evil angels permission to drown them? Or, do you think the evil angels killed the pigs in violation Jesus’ command not to do so?


My question concerns why you think God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Your story illustrates God taking the risk of being misunderstood but it doesn’t explain why God commanded Moses to kill those two guys.

So, again, here are my questions – Why do you think God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer? Why did He take the risk of being misunderstood? Why didn’t He take the risk of sharing His true feelings about capital punishment? What would have happened if God had simply told them the truth about capital punishment instead of commanding Moses to kill sinners?


I do not believe God ever caved in to pressure and permitted sinners to practice sin contrary to His will and law. The fact God permitted the Jews to practice polygamy, get divorced, and to have a king is evidence such things are not sinful in and of themselves. They were, nevertheless, contrary to God’s ideal will and desire for them. Do you agree?

Or, do you think God permitted the Jews to practice sin contrary to His ideal will and desire for them? If so, why would He do such a thing? Was it to make Himself look better? Listen:

Romans
3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

Punishment is not considered force. Nor is it considered violence or murder. Listen:

Genesis
6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Leviticus
26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
26:29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
26:30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Isaiah
42:13 The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.
42:14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, [and] refrained myself: [now] will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.
42:15 I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.

Ezekiel
25:7 Behold, therefore I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen; and I will cut thee off from the people, and I will cause thee to perish out of the countries: I will destroy thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD.