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Re: The 'Open View' of God
#10816
09/20/04 12:23 AM
09/20/04 12:23 AM
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Or, could it be that God's actions influence our prayers? That makes more sense to me. I see God as the prime mover in heaven and on earth. The fact He can predict the future indicates He is in control. And no amount of praying is going to change the outcome of unfulfilled prophecy. This insight doesn't make prayer unimportant, but it does put it in the right prospective.
I'm just not convinced that God is, in any way, dependent upon our prayers to do those things that are necessary to win the great controversy, to save souls, or to heal and forgive sick people. I believe God is in control. He can heal anyone anytime it is necessary. If need be He will commission stones to finish preaching the gospel. He is in no way indebted to mankind.
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Re: The 'Open View' of God
#10817
09/20/04 09:40 AM
09/20/04 09:40 AM
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Tom, good point about all these things being mysteries. One of the reasons for my pointing it out in this context was that I didn't want to push you or anyone into attempting to become too precise in an area where we really know very little.
I can see Mike's concern about the idea that we influence God. I think the traditional view in Adventism that prayer is to 'influence' us rather than for us to 'influence' God is correct. At first glance, the teaching of the 'open' view seems to muddy the waters on that issue, but maybe we're just not understanding it.
On the other hand, I agree with Tom that prayer opens the door in some mysterious way for God to act that would otherwise stay shut. It doesn't change His mind, or influence Him. It's not like the Catholic view of praying to Mary and the saints. But there is no doubt that God wants us to pray because prayer does make a big difference in the health and salvation and welfare of ourselves and of others.
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Re: The 'Open View' of God
#10818
09/20/04 09:44 AM
09/20/04 09:44 AM
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It might be helpful to ask the questions 'What does prayer do for me when I pray for my own salvation?' and 'How do my prayers for myself 'influence' God?'
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Re: The 'Open View' of God
#10819
09/20/04 10:04 AM
09/20/04 10:04 AM
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Another thought - It might be helpful to rethink our definition of prayer in this context. Aren't spontaneous outpourings of gratitude as much a prayer of the soul as agonizing petitions? How do these times of worship and adoration 'influence' us and 'influence' God? When Mary and Elizabeth were filled with gratitude and with the Holy Spirit they prophecied.
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Re: The 'Open View' of God
#10820
09/20/04 01:56 PM
09/20/04 01:56 PM
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Mark, I agree with the idea that our prayers are influenced by God's actions, God's influence. Exactly why God influences our prayers is, in some ways, a mystery. I cannot buy into the idea that He needs to influence our prayers so He can obtain permission to save souls, to heal the sick, or to do whatever it takes to win the great controversy. God earned the right on Calvary to do whatever He needs to do, in light of Satan's accusations, to accomplish these things. He is in no way dependent upon our prayers to do these specific things.
Matthew
28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
John
17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Colossians
2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
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Re: The 'Open View' of God
#10821
09/20/04 07:20 PM
09/20/04 07:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Shipowick:
Tom, good point about all these things being mysteries. One of the reasons for my pointing it out in this context was that I didn't want to push you or anyone into attempting to become too precise in an area where we really know very little.
I can see Mike's concern about the idea that we influence God. I think the traditional view in Adventism that prayer is to 'influence' us rather than for us to 'influence' God is correct. At first glance, the teaching of the 'open' view seems to muddy the waters on that issue, but maybe we're just not understanding it.
On the other hand, I agree with Tom that prayer opens the door in some mysterious way for God to act that would otherwise stay shut. It doesn't change His mind, or influence Him. It's not like the Catholic view of praying to Mary and the saints. But there is no doubt that God wants us to pray because prayer does make a big difference in the health and salvation and welfare of ourselves and of others.
I don't think the Adventest view is, well let me re-phrase that. I don't think the E.G.W. view is that our prayers don't influence God, but that they don't change God. This is dealing with the question of character vs. actions.
Open theism says that God's character doesn't change, but that He interacts with humans in a reciprocal relationship where both are influenced by the other. This doesn't imply equality in the relationship; God is God, and we are just creatures, but God in His graciousness has chosen to deal with us in this way.
"Influenced" doesn't imply changing God's character, but simply that He really does respond to us as a straight-forward reading of Scripture would indicate. I gave some examples earlier.
Regarding prayer, God is influenced by our prayers in the sense that He does things that He would not otherwise have done because we prayed.
There's a famous story about E.G.W. where she prayed for someone who was, let's say unsympathetic to the causes of God, and the fellow was healed and was worse after being healed than He was before. When she asked God why He healed the fellow, God responded, "because you asked."
I don't have a reference to this story, but I don't believe it's apocryphal.
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Re: The 'Open View' of God
#10822
09/20/04 07:30 PM
09/20/04 07:30 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark Shipowick:
It might be helpful to ask the questions 'What does prayer do for me when I pray for my own salvation?' and 'How do my prayers for myself 'influence' God?'
Very good questions!
Here's a way I think of the general question. To God our free will is paramount. He wants to teach us and guide us, more than we can no. But unless we cooperate with Him, for Him to do these things could involve infringing on our own choices. If we actively ask for guidance, we free Him up, so to speak, to do more for us.
In this case I think all of us would be in agreement that what's going on is we are indicating a willingness for God to mold us, a willingness to receive God's will, and this "allows" God to do what He was always wanting to do -- not because He changed in any way, but because we are "opening the door."
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Re: The 'Open View' of God
#10823
09/20/04 07:40 PM
09/20/04 07:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
He is in no way dependent upon our prayers to do these specific things.
If God chooses to limit His actions based on what we do (e.g. pray), this does not limit His power. But if we say that God is in no way dependent on what we pray for in order to do something, as, for example, heal someone, doesn't that imply that praying for the sick is of no value? At least, of no value to the sick person?
How do you understand the statements in James that the effectual prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much? That if we pray for the sick, they will be healed, and their sins forgiven?
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Re: The 'Open View' of God
#10824
09/20/04 11:30 PM
09/20/04 11:30 PM
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Praying for the healing of the sick, or for the salvation of souls, is right and good, no matter what the outcome. There is no gaurantee a sick person will be healed, or a soul saved, simply because we pray for them. That's not what James meant to imply. Whether they are healed or saved is not dependent upon our prayers. That doesn't mean we shouldn't pray. Of course not.
Prayer changes us, not God. He will not do anything, even if we pray for it, that will cause a soul to be lost. Jesus is too wise, and too loving, to do something wrong. God's hands are not tied until we pray. He has the right and authority to do whatever it takes to woo souls, and to win the great controversy.
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Re: The 'Open View' of God
#10825
09/21/04 04:12 AM
09/21/04 04:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Praying for the healing of the sick, or for the salvation of souls, is right and good, no matter what the outcome. There is no gaurantee a sick person will be healed, or a soul saved, simply because we pray for them. That's not what James meant to imply. Whether they are healed or saved is not dependent upon our prayers. That doesn't mean we shouldn't pray. Of course not.
Prayer changes us, not God. He will not do anything, even if we pray for it, that will cause a soul to be lost. Jesus is too wise, and too loving, to do something wrong. God's hands are not tied until we pray. He has the right and authority to do whatever it takes to woo souls, and to win the great controversy.
Of course God won't do anything to cause souls to be lost! Noone is saying that. People cause themselves to be lost by rejecting the love of God shining from the cross. That God can save anyone is an amazing testament to His love and patience. Romans 3:10-18 describes all of us.
I agree that prayer changes us, not God, in terms of character, which is the context of the comment. This comment does not imply that prayer does not change God's actions, and indeed could not mean that because of comments elsewhere that God does things He otherwise would not have done because of our prayers.
It appears to me that you think that James is suggesting that we pray for the sick not because God will heal them due to our prayers but because our prayers for the sick change us. Am I understanding your position correctly?
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