I asked how could anything happen which God did not permit. You're answering it could happen if God permitted it. But in this case, my question isn't being answered because my question is how could anything happen which God did not permit. Saying that something could happen which God did not permit if He permitted it is self-contradictory.



I'm not sure what you're meaning to say here. First of all, it's clear that many things happen which are contrary to God's will. We know this is true for many reasons, but just to mention one, Jesus instructed us to pray "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." If God's will were being done here, we wouldn't need to pray this prayer.

Secondly to say that everything is carefully orchestrated by God can give the impression that God is behind all the evil things which happens, that the evil things themselves are due to God's own actions. Is this what you were meaning to say?



God does not wish for any to perish, but there are people who perish, so His goals can be derailed, at least on an individual basis. God cannot force people to choose His principles.



God is not self-centered. He does not act in accordance with self interest, and your statement that God intervenes in ways to prevent an ending unfavorable for Himself may imply. God does no such thing. God intervenes so things do not end unfairly unfavorably for His creatures as a whole.

Oops! I misread the question. Sorry. I agree that the only things that happened in fact are things God permitted. For example, Job suffered outrageous losses because God permitted it. But, there are times when God Himself causes things to happen. In such cases it is not a matter of God permitting others to do it; instead, God Himself causes it to happen. For example, God employed the forces of nature to cause a worldwide Flood to punish full-cup sinners.


Time and circumstances force God to cause and permit things to happen that, were it not for sin and the GC, He would not cause or permit to happen. Desperate times require desperate measures. God’s options were limited. He could have allowed A&E to die in the day they sinned, in which case the human race would have ended with their death. If God had opted for this option, the biblical record of Him having to cause and permit bad things to happen would not exist. We wouldn’t be sitting here asking, Why does God cause or permit bad things to happen?

God, however, opted to grant mankind a probationary period to embrace Jesus as their Savior and to experience righteousness by faith. In so doing the GC grew to include mankind. Sin, evil, suffering, and death became integral parts of life on earth. Under the circumstances God is forced to cause and permit bad things to happen. But He is in control. He grants men and angels the right to choose as they please, but He reserves the right to manage the outcome of their choices. In this way God orchestrates the outcome of the GC. He leaves nothing to chance or choice. It is in this sense that nothing happens contrary to God’s will.


Let’s back it up to the beginning. Was it God’s will for men and angels to sin and die? No, of course not! But, again, His options were limited, namely, to create men and angels and deal with the GC, or not to create them and not have to deal with the GC. God knew in advance how things would play out and yet He chose to create men and angels anyhow. Why? “. . . for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” {AG 129.2} I realize you disagree with this view of God’s foreknowledge, but it should help you understand my point of view here. It is in this sense that sinners cannot derail God’s plan to win the GC.


Aren’t they one and the same? That is, if it’s good for God isn’t it also good for FMAs?

Your belief about Jesus being a full and complete revelation of all there is to know about God’s character and kingdom should not prevent you from answering my question. Here it is again:

Please explain why God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Thank you.


Again, your belief about Jesus being a full and complete revelation of all there is to know about God’s character and kingdom should not prevent you from answering my question. Here it is again:

Please explain why God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. Thank you.

The question was yours. That is, you asked:



to which I asked:



Similarly you asked:



To which I asked:



So you asked a number of questions which would only be possible if someone were to do something which God did not allow to happen, which seems impossible on the face of it, prompting me to ask you why you were asking such questions.



I agree with idea that God is forced to permit bad things to happen, but not with the idea that He is forced to cause bad things to happen.



I don't like the way this is phrased. It sounds to me like God is being manipulative. I wouldn't say that He reserves the right to manage the outcome of choices, but simply that God is good, and being good He responds to evil with goodness. He does just as Paul wrote in Romans 12; He overcomes evil with good.



I don't see the sense in this. He does leave things to choice. He leaves things to the choice of His creatures. Every knee will bow, every tongue confess. God will abide by the decisions which His creatures have made. For example, the wicked will voluntarily choose to be excluded from heaven. Even in the judgment God is not imposing His will.



If you state things the way you did, that God intervenes in ways that prevent the GC from playing out unfairly for the saints or ending unfavorably for Him, this certainly smacks of self-interest.

Regarding Moses and the Sabbath-breaker, I don't have anything to add to what we've discussed previously. The point I've been trying to make is that if there is a discrepancy between something we think that happened in the OT and what Jesus Christ revealed of God during His earthly mission, we should take the position that what Jesus Christ revealed is accurate, full, and complete, and that our idea of what happened in the OT which we perceive as being contradictory is what should be adjusted. This is as opposed to reaching the conclusion that Jesus Christ did not reveal all that God can know of God (but did something more limited, for example, revealing only what certain individuals could comprehend at the time).

MM, do you realize when you start making extraneous quotes, you cause me to feel that you really don't want to talk about the quote under question and are using tactics of distraction and filling page after page of unrelated nauseam in an attempt to change the topic, distract, overwhelm, hide, or otherwise avoid that which is uncomfortable to you or otherwise contradicts your views? When you say "Listen:", that means to skip over it as you will spout verse without explanation of how it fits or applies or explains the question asked. Now, I may be wrong, but that is what you are getting across to me. Evolutionists have used the same tactics. I feel one on the "Dreams" thread is doing the same. This is what you are causing me to feel towards you.

Want support for my feelings?

-versus-


I also no notice the quote says God does not stand as executioner, while you are saying it doesn't explain all the ways and methods of punishing sinners. Do you see a disconnect here?
I get the feeling that the quote on your screen must be different from the one on mine.

Does God stand towards the sinner as an executioner or doesn't He? Or should we insert the words, some of the time, most of the time, usually, rarely?



Regarding my reference to specific instance and meaning of punishment:

No, I don't suppose you do since you have avoided it (distracted, hid, overwhelmed, dismissed) in the past.
Such as #107197 of 1/6/9. Perhaps I can figure out a clearer way of stating it in the future.

Premature post.

Tom, please answer the questions I posted above. Your unwillingness to explain why God commanded Moses to kill the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer leads me to suspect you believe He didn't.

He doesn't.

Ok....


If God doesn't stand as executioner and leaves them to themselves, could you explain how that fits in with:

Please note the underlined sentence. Also the rest of the post, which makes the point I've been wishing to make. You can choose to agree or disagree with the point, but I think this is about as far as we can go on this subject for the time being.