Can we find this "light" in the SOP? Or, is it only found in J&W? Please explain.


Here's what I wrote about it:

1 John 3 explains what Jesus accomplished while here. Listen: ". . . he was manifested to take away our sins . . . For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

So, do you agree with me that Jesus accomplished these things while He was here?


Amen! Do you think His death accomplished other things? If so, please explain and provide scriptures. Thank you.


Actually you quoted all of 1 Peter 2:21-25. See 107710 above. How does returning unto Jesus like sheep explain why Jesus had to die? Also, do you agree with my assessment of 1 Peter 2:19-25?


Since you don't seem to mind quoting Peter to explain why Jesus had to die it seems reasonable to request that you quote Moses explaining why Jesus had to die.

I seem to remember earlier on this thread saying the Jews obeyed God's command to sacrifice animals without an explanation as to why. He simply expected them to obey Him. Someone argued that the Jews understood it symbolized Jesus' death and that their obedience was intelligent not slavish. I requested scripture proof. So far no one has posted any proof. I keep hoping you will.

1.Ellen White says it is light that we would not have had unless God had sent someone else to bring it.

2.I agree that Jesus accomplished the things that John said he did.

3.Regarding what Christ's death accomplished, we've had long discussions regarding this. I think the chapter "It Is Finished" provides a good summary. As a brief summary, EGW suggests that the whole purpose of Christ's mission on earth was the revelation of God. She quotes John 17, especially vss. 3, 4 and 7 I think (from memory). I already quoted Peter, who himself quote Isa. 53, so those are good verses. These discuss that Christ's death brings us to God, which I believe ties into the point made in John 17 (i.e., we are brought to God as a result of the revelation of His character). In addition, the death of Christ brought an end to the Great Controversy. Col. 2 comes to mind as a good text for this. Also Revelation 12, where it talks about how Satan was cast down.



Returning to God is the same theme as 1 Peter 3:18. Christ's death brings us to God by revealing His goodness and love, as well as revealing our sinfulness (and hence need for His forgiveness).

I don't disagree with the points you made in regards to 1 Peter 2:19-25, but you didn't touch on the point I was making, which was the same as 1 Pet. 3:18, that Christ died to bring us to God. We have been discussing the purpose for Christ's death, so I didn't see how your points regarding 1 Pet. 2 tied into this.



Why? Peter lived after Christ's death, while Moses lived before. It should be clear that this is a big difference. Are you looking for Moses explaining Jesus' death in the same was as Peter or Paul or John? Or did you have something else in mind?



I don't recall saying this. Can you quote something?



I don't think I've said anything about this.



This isn't Scripture, but it brings out that God's purpose was to teach men that from His own love comes the Gift which reconciles them to Himself.

Another SOP quote:



This is speaking of the road to Emmaus. She doesn't specify which prophecies were included, but she specifically mentions Moses.

What is this light? Can we find it in the SOP? If so, where?


Do you think I agree with John? I ask this question because you didn’t answer my question above: “So, do you agree with me that Jesus accomplished these things while He was here?”


If Jesus’ death ended the GC why is it still waging? Also, I couldn’t help noticing you didn’t include vindicating the law as a reason why Jesus had to die. Why not? I also noticed you didn’t say anything about His death satisfying the just and loving demands of law and justice as it pertains to the death penalty. Why not?


Yeah, that’s what I thought, too. That is, I don’t see how 1 Peter 2:19-25 explains why Jesus had to die.


Yes, I am looking for where Moses explained to the Jews why God required them to sacrifice animals. Or, did God expect them to do it simply because He said so?


“I seem to remember . . . saying” it “earlier on this thread”.


Yeah, I know. That’s why I keep hoping you will.


Yes, the SOP is very clear about the symbolic nature of the animal sacrifices, but where in the Pentateuch is it clear? Or, did the Jews obey God out of ignorance not knowing the sacrifices prefigured the death of Jesus? If so, was such obedience slavish?

The best source for the light which Jones and Waggoner brought is Jones and Waggoner.



All you did was quote John, wasn't it? What are asking that I agree with? Can you ask your question in your own words, instead of John's?



Christ's death decided the GC. That's what I meant by saying He brought it to an end.



I think these are included in the points I made. Specifically, deciding the GC does these things. For example, the law of God is a transcript of God's character, so vindicating God's character must of necessity vindicate the law of God.



See the underlined portion (which 1 Pet. 2:25 speaks of)



You're assuming that if Moses didn't explain the them why God required them to sacrifice animals, that they could not intelligently obey God, is that the point? So your argument is:

a.Moses did not explain to the Jews why they should sacrifice animals.
b.But they required to do so anyway.
c.Therefore their obedience was not an intelligent obedience.

So if Moses did not explain why God required sacrifice, then this would be proof that God requires "stupid" obedience (that is, obedience which is not intelligent obedience). This seems to be the argument you have in mind. If so, I can respond. But I'll wait for confirmation.



I don't know why you would be hoping I would be providing Scriptural proof regarding something I had not commented on.



The where isn't the salient point; the "that" is. The point here is not that the SOP is very clear about the symbolic nature of the animal sacrifices, but that the SOP identified the OT as being clear. Where it is clear is not the point here, but *that* it was clear. We're not told which passages Christ used, but we are told that He did use passages, so there are such passages.



How does this tie in with the Road to Emmaus?

To be clear here, I used SOP comments regarding the Road to Emmaus to make clear that Moses was used by Christ to explain His death. Given this is the case, the Jews did not need to "obey" God out of ignorance.

What is this light? Can we find it in the SOP? If so, where?


Do you think I believe Jesus accomplished the following things: 1) He took away our sins, and 2) He earned the right to destroy the works of the devil at the end of time? See 1 John 3:5,8.


Decided what and for who?


Law requires God to execute the death penalty in consequence of man’s sin. That’s another reason why Jesus had to die. His death satisfies the death penalty require of God by law. Listen:

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2} In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. {Con 21.3}


“For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.” In what way do you think Peter meant sinners are “returned” to Jesus?


Sort of. The fact Moses required the Jews to sacrifice animals, without explaining to them that it symbolizes the eventual death of Jesus, suggests they obeyed God for reasons that did not include understanding it prefigured the death of Jesus. This leads me to wonder what were the reasons the Jews relied on for obeying God in sacrificing animals. And, do those reasons qualify as slavish or intelligent obedience. So far you haven’t addressed this aspect of the issue. I hope you will.


Do you agree with the idea? If not, please explain why. If so, please post scripture to support it. Thank you.


Do you know of any passages in the Pentateuch where Moses explained to the Jews that the animal sacrifices symbolized the death of Jesus? I’m beginning to sense that you do not know where Moses explained it. It doesn’t matter to me if you can’t answer this question. I’m pretty certain Moses never recorded this explanation.

Also, the fact Jesus cited OT passages to prove Christ had to “suffer these things, and to enter into his glory” doesn’t mean Moses explained it clearly to the Jews back in the day. “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” Jesus “expounded” upon what Moses and the others wrote about it. Why? Perhaps it was because it wasn’t crystal clear. Perhaps it needed to be explained further by Jesus to be seen clearly.


If it is as clearly explained in the Pentateuch as you seem to think it is, then you shouldn’t have any trouble posting those places where Moses clearly explained to the Jews that sacrificing animals symbolize the eventual death of Jesus. Please do so. Thank you.

Since Ellen White wrote we would not have had the light unless someone other than Jones and Waggoner had brought it, that means it was not present in the SOP at the time she wrote this statement, since if it were her statement would be false, as we would have had it in her writings. So if it is to be found in the SOP, it would be found in her writings after this point in time. To locate in her writings the light Jones and Waggoner brought requires first knowing what that light is. The best way of knowing that is from their writings. I've suggested a couple of places to start.



If you say you do, I believe you. I don't understand what you mean by 2).



Decided the GC for the universe. The GC is a controversy between two individuals, both claiming to have the best interests of God's creatures at heart, and claiming the other to be a liar, severe, harsh, petty, seeking self-glory, and having their own interests at heart. Christ revealed who was telling the truth by unmasking Satan's character while revealing the Father's love.



1.Where does the law require this?
2.If this requirement did not exist, would beings who sin die? (second death)



In the same sense as 1 Pet. 3:18; they are brought to God. As EGW put it, the whole purpose of Christ's mission on earth was the revelation of God, to set men right with God. I think this is expressing the same idea as Peter (also of John in John 17, which is actually Jesus' idea, since John is quoting Jesus' prayer).



You seem to be assuming that if Moses did not explain the meaning of the sacrifice, then the Jews could not have known why they were to sacrifice animals. But couldn't the reason why have been knowledge they already had? Or knowledge that was communicated by the sacrificial services themselves? For example, if God gave us commands to do certain things which involved televisions or cars, we have an understanding of these acts because televisions and cars are a part of our culture; these are things we are intimately familiar with.



You're asking for Scriptural proof that the Jews understood the sacrifices symbolized Christ's death? It seems clear that Abraham understood it. This seems clear from Genesis itself, and Paul makes this argument in many places, including Romans 4, Galatians 3 and Hebrews 11.



Look at the writings of Paul. They are founded on the OT writings, especially the Pentateuch. Paul explains Christ's death by means of these passages, especially in Romans and Galatians.



I don't understand why you would think this. Jesus said that Moses saw His day and wrote of Him. The NT writers, especially Paul, quoted extensively from Moses.



Paul seems to have understood Moses clearly. Perhaps the fault was not with Moses but with the Jews.



I would again refer you to the writings of Paul. He explains the Gospel clearly using passages from Moses.

I disagree. She didn’t say the message was nonexistent prior to J&W. It has existed from the foundation of the world. Here’s what she wrote about it:


As you can see, she said, “Many had lost sight of Jesus”, and that the message of J&W redirected their eyes to Him. She also wrote that their message was designed to bring Jesus “more prominently” to the world. These are things that God's messengers have been doing since the beginning of time, and things Ellen had been doing long before J&W did it.


Thank you for believing me. The way I worded #2 above is what I think John means in 1 John 3:8 – “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” Jesus will destroy the works of the devil (i.e. the sins of the world) with Satan in the lake of fire at the end of time. Of course, Jesus can also destroy the works of the devil by empowering believers to live without sinning.


Satan also says it is impossible for FMAs to be all they can be plus live within the confines of the law. He says it is impossible to obey the law perfectly because it goes against our nature as gods. Satan says God is a tyrant for commanding FMAs to obey His law and promising to execute justice and judgment upon those who refuse to comply. The GC, therefore, will not end favorably for God until the 144,000 demonstrate the truth and benefit of obeying God’s law. That’s when Satan will finally be compelled to admit that he has been wrong all along about God and His law.


1. The quotes posted above confirm the truthfulness of what I wrote about law and justice and the substitutionary death of Jesus. 2. “Sin is not imputed when there is no law.” Rom 5:13. No law, no sin; no sin, no death. Of course, this is purely hypothetical because God is too wise and good to create FMAs without a law to govern them and Him. BTW, sinners could live indefinitely if God gave them access to eat from the tree of life. Listen:

I was pointed to Adam and Eve in Eden. They partook of the forbidden tree and were driven from the garden, and then the flaming sword was placed around the tree of life, lest they should partake of its fruit and be immortal sinners. The tree of life was to perpetuate immortality. I heard an angel ask, "Who of the family of Adam have passed the flaming sword and have partaken of the tree of life?" I heard another angel answer, "Not one of Adam's family has passed that flaming sword and partaken of that tree; therefore there is not an immortal sinner. The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2}


Who brought the sheep back to the shepherd? What is symbolized by the sheep, the shepherd, and the person who brought the sheep back to the shepherd? And, how did that person bring them back?


Are you suggesting Moses didn’t record it because it was common knowledge, and that the reasons they obeyed God’s command to sacrifice animals was indeed based on knowing it symbolized the eventual death of Jesus, therefore, their obedience was not slavish but intelligent?


“Seems clear” and is clear are two entirely different realities. I’m guessing you cannot prove from the Pentateuch that the Jews understood that the animal sacrifices symbolized the eventual death of Jesus.


Every time you avoid or refuse posting passages from the Pentateuch that make it clear the animal sacrifices symbolize the eventual death of Jesus I am more convinced you can’t do it and that such passages do not exist. I agree with you that Paul understood it, but please post passages from him that clearly teach it.


Again, your unwillingness to quote from the Pentateuch is convincing evidence it isn’t there. Otherwise, you would post them freely like a slam dunk.


Perhaps. Please show me the passages in the Pentateuch which you believe the Jews failed to understand, passages that clearly explained it. Also, why do you think Jesus had to “expound” (elaborate, expand, and explain) the OT scriptures concerning Him if it was clearly spelled out?


Isn’t it time you admit Moses didn’t clearly explain it? How long can you pretend he did and refuse to quote him? Either quote him or admit it isn’t there. Thank you.

She said they brought light we would not have had unless someone else had brought it.



I don't understand what you have against Jones and Waggoner.

That others did things Jones and Waggoner did as well does not mean that Jones and Waggoner did not do things that others did.



In context, John is not discussing the destruction of Satan in the lake of fire.



I think John was thinking along the same lines as Ellen White brings out here.



The cross was the deciding event that secured the universe.

Regarding my questions: 1. Where does the law require this? 2. If this requirement did not exist, would beings who sin die? (second death), I didn't see that your response addressed these. Specifically I don't see where you said the law requires death, and also I don't know if you think that if this requirement did not exist if beings who sin would still die.

I'm guessing you think sinners wouldn't did because you don't think that sin is lethal, but that sinners only die because God kills them (or destroys them, or casts them in the lake of fire, or engulfs them with fire from above, however you want to put it).



Christ, the shepherd, brings the sheep (repentant sinners) back to the fold, according to the means EGW mentioned that I quoted above.



I'm suggesting your suggestion that the Jews must not have known the meaning of sacrifice if Moses didn't tell them is not a sufficient argument as it does not take into account this possibility.



Writing "seems clear" is simply proper etiquette.



This is a new request. Before you were asking for proof that Moses taught this. Why are you asking for proof that the Jews believed it?



I told you where they are.



Again I told you where to look. Look particularly in Galatians 3 and Romans 4. There are are couple of specific places to look where Paul his gospel argued from Moses. Really, there are so many places where Paul argues this, I'm surprised you would ask for proof. It's all over his writings.



2 Cor. 3 is another place to look. This speaks to the Jews blindness, and uses Moses to argue both in regards to Jesus' importance, and their blindness to it. I'd start with Gal. 3 however. The whole chapter is good, but you could focus on the first 18 verses.



Moses didn't explain the Gospel? Really, I'm surprised you would assert such a thing. Here's a specific reference from Paul:



Note that Paul says that God preached the Gospel to Abraham, and Paul was quoting Moses to so argue. Please also remember that the Gospel is Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

This doesn’t mean the light was nonexistent prior to J&W. Otherwise, the Bible is not a sufficient guide unto all truth and salvation. It was old light that seemed new because it had been largely forgotten.


There is nothing new under the sun, Tom. J&W didn’t share anything that wasn’t first shared by someone else, especially in the Bible. What I have against J&W is their writing style. I prefer how Ellen shared the same message.


Yeah, that seems more to the point. Thank you for sharing. By the way, this just occurred to me, do you see a connection between John’s expression “the works of the devil” and Paul’s expression “the works of the flesh”? Here’s the context of Paul’s expression:

Galatians
5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


True, but I was addressing a different issue. Jesus Himself could not prove beyond question that sinners can experience rebirth and live without sinning for the simple reason He never sinned and experienced rebirth. This aspect of the GC can only be settled by born again sinners. Jesus cannot win the GC until this happens. And, the universe will not be secure until after it happens. But it is as good as done because God said it will happen.


Where does it say the law requires anything? As you like to argue – “The law is not a sentient being.” Of course, the SOP describes the law requiring obedience and condemning disobedience and requiring God to execute the death penalty in consequence of sin. But, to answer your question, I don’t know where the law requires anything (other than what God said about it through the SOP).

To add to what I posted above in response to your second question I also believe even if sinners had regular access to the tree of life they would die if someone lopped off their head. But it is clear that sin itself is not the reason sinners die. Sinners die a long lingering first death because they cannot eat regularly from the tree of life. Which is why there isn’t an immortal sinner. Unprotected exposure to the firelight of God’s glory, on the other hand, causes sinful flesh to burn up. In such cases, the death of the sinner is collateral damage. That’s why God had to shield His glory when He appeared unto Moses on the mount.


Thank you for answering my question.


You didn’t answer my question.


I’m asking for proof for both. So far you have refused to provide it.


Nothing you referenced clearly taught it. Do you know of a Pauline passage that does?


Once you again you have not provided passages from the Pentateuch that clearly say it.


I just reread Gal 3 and I didn’t see where Paul said, “Jesus had to die because …” The closest he got to saying it is in verse 3: “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” Most likely Paul is referring to the following passage in Deuteronomy:

21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Nor did I find anything in 2 Cor 3 where Paul plainly explained why Jesus had to die. The only thing he said about Moses is the following:

3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [veil] is done away in Christ.
3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.
3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.

Also, you didn’t answer the second question - Why do you think Jesus had to “expound” (elaborate, expand, and explain) the OT scriptures concerning Him if it was clearly spelled out?


I’ve been asking you to show me where Moses 1) clearly explained why Jesus had to die or 2) where he clearly explained that the animal sacrifices symbolize the eventual death of Jesus. So far you have refused to do it. Why?


Please show me where Moses 1) clearly explained that the gospel is Christ and Him crucified, and 2) clearly explained why Jesus had to die.

That's exactly what it means. If I say, "the Lord sent us light through MM which we would not have had unless the Lord sent someone else to bring that light," that means the light that was brought didn't exist before the Lord gave it to MM. This is simple logic.



That doesn't follow it all. Light is progressive. The fact that the Lord is constantly sending new light does not mean the Bible is not a sufficient guide.



Then there's no need to quote Ellen White, right?



I can't say anything about any personal preferences you may have, but Ellen White's opinion was that Waggoner could explain righteousness by faith better than she. Of course, you're free to disagree with her.



I think the works of the flesh are the result of the works of the devil. The work of the devil is primarily to foster unbelief -- distrust of God. If we don't trust God (love Him, believe in Him, live by His principles) the works of the flesh will follow.



I disagree with this, especially the last two sentences. The penultimate sentence I disagree with because we've been told that the universe has been made eternally secure by the cross. This is something which already happened. It is not something yet future.



The last sentence I disagree with because if the GC could be resolved simply by God's saying something, there would have been no need to fight it in the first place.



I was actually thinking of Scripture here. That is, I was asking where in Scripture does the law require death for sinning? I think what Scripture does is describe what happens to those who sin; they die. For example, "The soul that sins shall die" or "and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death" or "The wages of sin is death" (also translated "Sin pages its wages: death") or "the sting of death is sin."



So sin does not result in death.

Here's why I disagree with this idea. In the first chapter of the Desire of Ages, the "law of life for the universe," is described, which is a law of giving. She speaks of "the circuit of beneficence" which is what she identifies as the "law of life." Now sin is in its essence selfishness. Selfishness is the antithesis of love. Selfishness does not give, but takes. As such, selfishness, and hence sin, can only result in death. Selfishness is not a principle which promotes life, but death.



So far? You've only asked once, just now. I'm asking why. This isn't even a claim I've made. Why are you asking me to prove something I've not said?

Regarding your questions regarding Moses and the Gospel, here's one example. Gal. 3 says, "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel beforehand unto Abraham." This Gospel was recorded by Moses. The Gospel is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. So we see that Moses preached the Gospel, and thus Christ and Him crucified.

Both the books of Romans and Galatians are full of Scriptures from Moses, which Paul used to prove his Gospel. As Moses was held in such high esteem, it was natural that he should do this.