Yes, there are instances and circumstances in which prayer moves the hand and heart of the Lord in ways not otherwise possible. But such cases do not directly impact the outcome of the great controversy or unfulfilled prophecy. Jesus is doing, and will do, whatever it takes to vindicate His kingdom and character, with or without our prayers.

James' counsel regarding prayer for the sick must be understood in the context of God's will. We may be motivated to pray for healing, but we must always pray, Thy will be done. Unless, of course, God instructs us in a dream or vision to pray for a miraculous healing. Otherwise, there's no guarantee God will heal someone. Again, Jesus is too wise, and too loving, to do something wrong. Our prayers will never change God's intended actions in ways that yield unfavorable results.

Yes, praying for the sick changes us, whether healing happens or not. Again, James' advice and instruction regarding healing cannot be taken to mean if we believe hard enough we can, by faith and through prayer, heal someone. There's no guarantee; just hope.

Matthew
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.

James
4:15 For that ye [ought] to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

1 Peter
3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.

"Yes, there are instances and circumstances in which prayer moves the hand and heart of the Lord in ways not otherwise possible. But such cases do not directly impact the outcome of the great controversy or unfulfilled prophecy."

No one has said anything about unfulfilled prophesy in this thread, so I'm a bit confused why you keep bringing it up. Perhaps there is a tie-in to it in the way you are thinking, but what that tie-in is not clear to me.

I do not know what you mean when you say that on the one hand prayer moves the hand and heart of the Lord (BTW this is what I mean by "influence") in ways not otherwise possible, but such prayers have no direct impact in the Great Controversy. This seems impossible to me. What's an example of an answered prayer that doesn't impact the Great Controversy? (other than something trivial, like being able to find a certain pair of socks). It seems you are saying that God may answer prayer, but only if it doesn't have an impact on the Great Controversy.

"Jesus is doing, and will do, whatever it takes to vindicate His kingdom and character, with or without our prayers."

It is my opinion that what Jesus does is dependent on what we do. For example:

"When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (COL 69)

This seems like the same principle to me. What we do has an impact on God's plans.

"Again, Jesus is too wise, and too loving, to do something wrong. Our prayers will never change God's intended actions in ways that yield unfavorable results."

Of course Jesus doesn't do things which are wrong, but He gave us free will, and we can use that free will in ways which change God's intended actions in ways that yield unfavorable results. The fact that we live in a world of sin is evidence of this.

"Yes, praying for the sick changes us, whether healing happens or not. Again, James' advice and instruction regarding healing cannot be taken to mean if we believe hard enough we can, by faith and through prayer, heal someone. There's no guarantee; just hope."

My question was do you think the reason that James enjoins us to pray for the sick ONLY because it changes us?

Thank you for continuing this thread. These are important issues, and I appreciate the chance to try to understand them better, which you are helping me to do (and I hope likewise).

Mike L. said,

quote:

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Our prayers will never change God's intended actions in ways that yield unfavorable results.

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I think it's evident that the narratives in the Old Testament of the quail plague in the wilderness, and the installation of Saul as king of Israel, show that not to be true.

Just some quotes about frustrating God with our own free-wills.
(all emphasis mine)

"In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who {the condition}do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace." {AG 134.7}

"If one pupil is reckless, and indulges an excessive love of amusements, he should bring himself under the control of principle, lest he may become a working agent for Satan, to counteract, by his wrong influence, the work which teachers are trying to do, and mar that which heavenly intelligences are seeking to accomplish through human agents. He may frustrate the design of God, and fail to accept Christ and to become indeed a son of God." {FE 245.3}

There was a well known Anglican preacher in England in the 1970's that one of my professors at Newbold College liked to listen to. The only thing I can remember about him was that he said in his droll British accent, "God is NOTT yoowr buddy!". Tom, do you think the open view is intended to correct that view somewhat. God isn’t our buddy, but he’s definitely interacting with us.

I like the idea that the dynamic between us and God in the 'open view' is one of interaction rather than a one way street. If you read the Song of Solomon which describes the relationship of Christ and the church, the picture is pure romance. How much more interactive can you get?!

But God is our buddy!

"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." (John 15:15)

He longs to relate to us as friends. He really and truly is our friend, and He invites us to consider Him as such. Even though we are not really His friends by way of our actions and thoughts, He considers and treats us as friends. For example, Jesus referred to Judas as "friend" in the midst of being betrayed by him.

I also find the emphasis on two-way interaction very attractive.

I also think it presents a good answer to the difficult question of the problem of evil (if God is good, omnipotent and omniscient, why did sin come about).

Finally, the Spirit of Prophesy tells us several times that God took a risk in sending Christ. This to me paints an awesome picture of God, that He was willing to take this risk on our behalf (even on my behalf, since Christ would have been willing to die for just one). The open view makes intelligible these statements regarding risk.

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Removed the quote of the previous post only. - Daryl

[ October 01, 2004, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Many things about God are shrouded in mystery. But this much I know. I believe He is in control. He knows the end from the beginning. Our God is sovereign. For God, watching human history is like watching a rerun. He fixed the day and hour of Christ’s birth, death, resurrection and ascension. No amount of prayer could have changed those things. The day and hour of Christ’s return is also fixed. Nothing I say or do is going to change when Jesus returns.

The outcome of human history, the great controversy, is fixed. Nothing I say or do is going change the outcome. I do not fear today or tomorrow because I know God is in control. Nothing I say or do will usurp God’s control. When I pray, I always pray – Thy will be done. I know Jesus is too wise and loving to cause or permit something to happen that isn’t right and best. So, when I pray, I pray – Thy will be done. I do not pretend I know better than God.

As far as everything else goes, all I can say is, I don’t know. But this much I do know – God is in control. Nothing takes Him by surprise. He doesn’t have to scramble to undo things to keep it all on track or on target. He’s got everything under control. He influences people in ways that do not violate their freedom of choice, but at the same the outcome of their choices are in harmony with His will. Again, we might manage the choices, but God manages the consequences.

If nothing we do or say can change when Jesus returns, how can we hasten His coming?

"It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel." (COL 69)

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Edited our quote of previous post only. - Daryl

[ October 01, 2004, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]