Yes, God is responsible for the existence of sin. However, He did not make it happen. Nor did He prevent it from happening. He created free moral agents, knowing that they would sin. Thus, He is responsible for the existence of sin and death. Not to blame, just responsible. What has happened, and what is yet to happen, is part of His perfect plan. There were and are no other better options.

Whatever we do between now and the return of Christ that can be construed, after the fact (in heaven with hindsight), as hindering or hastening the return of Christ, is purely academic. Most likely we won't know that now, unless God reveals it in a dream or vision. But we will know it later on, in heaven. The date of His return is based on these factors.

Also, the idea that Jesus could have sinned, thus imperiling heaven, is academic too. God knew Jesus would succeed. But such foreknowledge in no way lessens the risk He took to save mankind. I believe the risk, or weak link, is mankind, not God. To vindicate His kingdom and character God must save souls, mankind must choose to be saved. Otherwise, the evidence that God's love is salvation and trustworthy would be impossible to verify.

If there's only 1 DVD, and God chose that DVD above any other DVD, including DVD's where sin did not exist, then God IS to blame for sin. In this case, it would be true that made it happen.

I've got no idea what your paragraph 2 is saying. If the date of Christ's return is fixed, we cannot hasten Christ's coming. According to inspiration, we can. If the date of Christ's return is fixed at, say, 2072, then Christ could not have come in, say, 1897, and Ellen G. White could not have been correct in saying in 1903 that Christ could have come and would have come during the late 1890's had the message God had sent through Waggoner and Jones not been resisted.

I don't understand what you mean by saying that Christ could have sinned is academic. If there is no chance that Christ could have failed, then God did not take a risk. The world "risk" conveys uncertainty; "a possibility of incurring loss or misfortune" defines the word "risk."

======

Removed quote of previous post. - Daryl

[ October 03, 2004, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Alas, the english language fails me again, at least my command of it. Or, maybe we just disagree? And that's cool, since we're talking about one of the great unsolved mysteries regarding God - His foreknowledge.

Yes, we can hinder or hasten the return of Christ, but God has fixed the day and hour of Jesus' return based on these factors. In my mind, God is not a helpless bystander, standing there wringing His hands hoping He will win the great controversy in a timely manner. The fact He could have come "ere this" is true, but since the conditions were not met He has not returned yet.

As I see it, God is actively and aggressively orchestrating things, influencing our choices and managing the consequences, directing the holy angels, allowing or disallowing the evil angels to tempt and harass us, etc., so that the outcome of events play out exactly according to His one and only perfect plan. No mistakes, no back tracking, no scrambling to save face. God is perfectly in control. He will not allow anything to hinder or hasten His way of working things out.

I believe the "risk" God took in sending Jesus to redeem us has to do with whether or not we would fail - not whether or not Jesus would fail. Yes, when Jesus became a human being He assumed the same liabilities all of us possess, which means He could have sinned, He could have refused the cup, but never was there a doubt in God's mind. He knew Jesus would succeed. God knows He will win the great controversy. He knows who will be lost and who will be saved. No question, no guess work, no uncertainty. At least that's how I see it.

Do you believe God knows the end from the beginning - like watching a rerun on TV? If not, what do you believe?

By the way, you may want to consider clicking on the "Post Reply" button at the bottom of the page, instead of clicking on the qoutation marks (" ") within the post you wish to reply to.

No I don't think God knows the end from the beginning like watching a rerun on T.V. I believe He knows the end from the beginning in that He knows if you begin in this way, this is what your end will be. He doesn't have to "watch a rerun" to know it.

I believe God knows all possible futures, so using the DVD analogy He sees all the decillions of DVD's there are which represent all the possibile futures there are. In every possible future, Christ will return, so He can say with certainty that Christ will return, but the details remain with us. We really can hasten or delay His coming, just like inspiration says we can.

The view you hold is self-contradictory. I'm given this example several times, but I don't think you've responded. If Christ's coming is and always has been fixed at, say, 2063, then it was that way in the 19th century. It could not have been the case when EGW wrote that Christ could have come previously that He actually could have come previously.

Your argument seems to be that Christ could have come at a different time had things been different from the way they were from time and eternity. But this is missing the point. To use the DVD anaolgy, there's only 1 DVD in your view. So there's NO possibility that things could have been different than they were, and hence NO possibility that Christ could have come at a previous date.

Perhaps a simpler way to see this is that if the date for Christ's coming is fixed, then it can't be changed. If it can't be changed, it can't be different than what it is. If it can't be different than what it is, it can't be some of other date. If it can't be some other date, then it could not have occured in the past.

Maybe that's not simpler.

Regarding risk, the statement from EGW is that GOD sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss. Here's the quote:

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.

The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49)

Please notice that the quote is dealing with the risk that GOD took. The language could not be clearer. God the Father's risk is compared to the risk an earthly father takes, and God's risk is labeled as "more fearful".

"As I see it, God is actively and aggressively orchestrating things, influencing our choices and managing the consequences, directing the holy angels, allowing or disallowing the evil angels to tempt and harass us, etc., so that the outcome of events play out exactly according to His one and only perfect plan."

I agree with this statement of yours, but God's one and only perfect plan is to eliminate sin as quickly as He can. How long that takes is dependent on His free will creatures. He could have solved the problem a long time ago had He not met with so much resistance. For example, He could have solved it through the nation of Israel had they responded to His grace. And He never would have had to solve the problem at all had His free will creatures not chosen to rebel against Him.

It was never God's will that sin should exist.

======

Removed quote of previous post. - Daryl

[ October 03, 2004, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

I agree God did not intend for Satan or mankind to sin and rebel. But He foresaw it, and dealt with it by creating them anyhow. Thus, His one and only perfect plan accommodated the sin problem and the solution - Christ and Him crucified.

God has been working faithfully ever since the inception of sin and salvation to ensure that the affairs of mankind work out according to His will and way. The choices we make, no matter what they are, cannot derail God's perfect plan. Whatever our choices God will manipulate the consequences to serve His perfect plan.

The fact Jesus could have come "ere this" does not change the fact the day and hour of His coming has been fixed from eternity, and is presently some time in the future. Saying that Christ could have come "ere this" does not mean God doesn't have an unchangable day and hour fixed in time. The fact Jesus hasn't come yet is evidence there is a fixed date, which is based on God's perfect plan. Jesus will not return too soon or too late, because in either case it would implicate God, and play into Satan's accusations.

2 Peter
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

"The fact Jesus could have come "ere this" does not change the fact the day and hour of His coming has been fixed from eternity, and is presently some time in the future. Saying that Christ could have come "ere this" does not mean God doesn't have an unchangable day and hour fixed in time. The fact Jesus hasn't come yet is evidence there is a fixed date, which is based on God's perfect plan."

It's not a question of causation Mike, but of logical impossibility. That Jesus could have come "ere this" does not "change" anything, but it is logically incompatible with the idea that Jesus could not have come "ere this".

If the date of Christ's coming is fixed, at say 2048, then it's simply not possible that He could have come "ere this". It's like having a square circle.

Saying that Christ could have come "ere this" (e.g. 1855) does indeed mean that God does not have an unchangeable date. A date that changes is not compatible with a date that doesn't change.

You didn't address the risk issue. (That God the Father took a more fearful risk than earthly father's take, discussed in DA 49)

What you are doing Mike, IMO, is allowing a (I can't think of the word, maybe "perdetermined") idea influence the way you are interpreting inspiration, namely the Greek idea of God's omniscience. I will give an analogy: the immortality of the soul, also a Greek idea. One one comes at Scripture with the mind-set that the soul is immortal, that will lead to all sorts of wrong conclusions, such as God tormenting people in hell for all eternity. Similarly having your base line as the Greek idea of omniscience (e.g. that for God time is like a T.V. rerun) is coloring your interpretation of inspiration, to the point that you are not seeing that your viewpoint is leading to a logical impossibility (a date can be simultaneously changeable and unchangeable)

What I would like to suggest is that you forget what you think you know about God's omniscience, and consider the following facts from inspiration:

1) We can not only look forward to, but hasten Christ's coming.
2) We can delay Christ's coming (which we actually have).
3) God took a fearful risk in sending Christ.
4) All heaven was imperiled for our redemption.

These inspired statements should be our base line. Whatever theory we come up with regarding God's foreknowledge should should harmonize with these statements.

Thank you for the advice, I will pray about it. However, I do not see, at this point, that the things I've been sharing are inconsistent with the truth and God's omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence. It is easier for me to accept the fact that there are many things about God that are mysterious and incomprehensible, even seemingly contradictory, than it is to dogmatically believe He cannot know the end from the beginning like watching a rerun on TV. But, I will continue to pray about it.

Romans
11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

This much I believe without a doubt: God is in control. He can predict the future with unerring accuracy. He will win the great controversy according to His one and only perfect plan. He knew Jesus would be successful on the Cross. Jesus will return on time, not too soon, not too late. Although we manage our choices, God manages the consequences. Nothing we do or don't do will derail God's perfect plan.

Clearly put, Tom.
Calvinistic/Grecian mindsets are very hard to shake for many divinity grads, sad to say.

However, there are many paradoxes in Christian thought; things we can't understand. I can see how something might be changeable, yet also unchangeable, from our perspective. God knows all, and is above and beyond time; after all He created time. Though He lives in it too.

Meanwhile, we aren't a whole lot higher than insects in our understanding! (hyperbolically speaking)

"It is He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;..." -- Isaiah 40:22

If you will pray about it Mike, that's great. We all have, without exception, errors in our concepts of God. Satan is very clever at misrepresenting Him. May we be willing to allow God to correct our false views! (This is an almost constant prayer for me regarding myself. God is far better than we can imagine.)