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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#108110
02/10/09 01:33 PM
02/10/09 01:33 PM
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“As the subject was presented before me, the period of Christ’s ministration seemed almost accomplished. Am I accused of falsehood because time has continued longer than my testimony seemed to indicate? How is it with the testimonies of Christ and His disciples? Were they deceived? Paul writes to the Corinthians: ‘But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none; and they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not’ (1 Cor. 7:29, 30).
“Again, in his epistle to the Romans, he says: ‘The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light’ (Rom. 13:12). . . .
“The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.”—Ellen G. White, Selected Messages, book 1, p. 67.
A good example of the "conditional" nature of the threatening of God is in the book of Jonah where Jonah gives the message "40 days and Nineveh WILL be destroyed". It is not of the form "Will be destroyed unless you repent so please repent and my loving Merciful God will forgive you". So then - was Nineveh destroyed in 40 days? A good example of the "conditional" nature of the promises of God -- Is 59 promises to Israel - vs 21 " My Spirit which IS upon you and My Word which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth nor from the mouth of your offspring nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring says the Lord from now and FOREVER!" These prophecies are conditional in fulfillment of the Word of God given to Jeremiah 18:6-10 Daryl,
I certainly agree that Paul appears to have believed Christ would return in his day. I'm sure the disciples thought so too after two angels had told them "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
Indeed. For Paul says "WE who are ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the air" referencing BOTH the "dead in Christ" and those who are "alive and remain". But as Ellen White says -- the understanding that she had in the giving of her own vision was that Christ WOULD really come before that time. In the vision it is an angel that she quotes -- so this is not simply the opinion of Ellen White that some would remain while others would be "food for worms" thus covering both the example of the living and the dead. In Matt 22 when Christ said that "God is not the God of the dead" arguing the point about Abraham Isaac and Jacob -- His intent is that we understand that God is NOT the God of the dead -- He needed that point to stick so that He could make his case about the resurrection being "required" in order that God's claim that He IS the God of Abraham be "true". If there was some other way to solve the puzzle -- the resurrection would not have been proven in that debate. but as it was all who witnessed Christ's debate with the Sadducees in Matt 22 agreed that his argument totally put them to silence. in Christ, Bob
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108294
02/13/09 03:22 PM
02/13/09 03:22 PM
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When I said "including what the prophets themselves may have taught," I meant that they taught that which they may not have believed/understood. In other words, sometimes they were inspired to present something, when they themselves did not realize the significance of it. What is an example of something a true prophet taught that he "may not have believed"? I just stumbled upon the following from Mrs. White while studying the lesson for this week...it makes the point rather well.
August 24, 1874
Dear Brother Loughborough:
I hereby testify in the fear of God that the charges of Miles Grant, of Mrs. Burdick, and others published in the Crisis are not true. The statements in reference to my course in forty-four are false. {1SM 74.1}
With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point. {1SM 74.2}
In other words, BELIEF and TEACHING are not necessarily one and the same. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#108298
02/13/09 04:20 PM
02/13/09 04:20 PM
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GC: When I said "including what the prophets themselves may have taught," I meant that they taught that which they may not have believed/understood. In other words, sometimes they were inspired to present something, when they themselves did not realize the significance of it.
M: What is an example of something a true prophet taught that he "may not have believed"?
GC: Mike, I think there are a lot of things which the prophets taught without realizing it. Oh, now I see what you mean. At first it sounded like you were saying they sometimes taught things they didn't believe. Thank you for clarifying. I agree with you that most prophets did not understand much of what they received and shared of God. GC: For example, Psalm 22. It was surely written under inspiration, but I'm of a mind to think David had more personal thoughts when writing it, and did not have a vision of Jesus on the cross. Yet this same chapter teaches us some very specific things that would happen to Jesus. Only God could have orchestrated such beautiful correlation, but I am very dubious that David had a full realization of the significance of what he was saying. Good point. I agree. Jesus cited Jonah's time in the belly of the whale to indicate how long He would be in the heart of the earth, and yet there is nothing in the book of Jonah to suggest it. Jesus may have forced this application. GC: God is so great that he can use the lowliest prophet to express truths of which the prophet himself is unaware. Remember Baalam? Do you really think that Baalam knew the full sigificance of the words God put in his mouth? I seriously doubt he understood it. GC: Do you think Moses understood the symbolic significance of striking the rock the first time, and speaking to it the second? If he had known, it would have made his sin so much the greater, had he not followed the directions given him. God does not always tell the prophets what the significance is. He just uses their words and actions to teach HIS timeless truths. Amen. GC: Look at Ezekiel. He was told exactly what to say and do in some of his prophecies. His prophecy foretells the besiegement and destruction of Jerusalem 40 years after Christ's crucifixion. Do you think Ezekiel knew that those events would occur? I am not convinced this is what God had in mind when He commanded Ezekiel to act out this particular prophecy. I suspect that in this case Ezekiel understood what God was communicating to the people.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: teresaq]
#108299
02/13/09 04:24 PM
02/13/09 04:24 PM
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M: The following passage seems to suggest John felt he was living in "the last time". What is "the last time" he was referring to?
....Are we to conclude John, Peter, and Jude all believed time would last beyond 1844 when they wrote about being in "the last time"? Or, is there another way of looking at their use of the expression "the last time"?
t: i have come across different sources that, briefly, state the jews believed there would be 7000 years of history. if that is true the jewish believers werent necessarily expecting a quick return of Christ.
just how much the bible writers and believers understood of what they wrote im not inclined to get into speculation. im not sure what the benefits to that line of thinking are.
it just seems to me that the latter days doesnt necessarily mean days, weeks, months or even years. they could very well have been understood as centuries and millenia, but compared to the preceding 4000 years are now the "latter days". symbolic language if you will.
so to emphasize i would not know how much the bible writers and believers of the millenia knew or understood, but it seems to me they probably understood more than they are given credit for. Interesting. Thank you for sharing.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108335
02/14/09 12:06 AM
02/14/09 12:06 AM
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In other words, BELIEF and TEACHING are not necessarily one and the same. True. But what are you suggesting as this relates to what prophets recorded in the Bible? Mike, I am simply suggesting that the New Testament prophets believed Christ would return in their day. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108429
02/16/09 04:18 AM
02/16/09 04:18 AM
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GC, I assume you are referring to the writings of Peter, Paul, and John. However, did they ever, under inspiration of the spirit of prophecy, actually prophesy Jesus would return within their lifetime? Mike, That's more a matter of interpretation than anything. If we were living in their day, yes, we would have interpreted their words to apply to "our" day...as we also do now, and has probably been done in every generation after them. However, I would liken their words to those of Mrs. White when she wrote about the things she had been shown while gathered among a number of other Advent believers in 1856. It was her impression that those words should apply to the self-same group of people with whom she was at that time. If we say she "prophesied" that God would come in "her day," then we have a failed prophecy, of course. Likewise with the New Testament prophets, and Jesus Himself. They all spoke as if Christ's return was imminent; as if it would come to their own generation. God is pleased to have us be watchful and ready, and seems to predict His coming to every generation--and truly, I don't believe this is at all deceitful, for God does come in judgment to every generation, and we might as well be prepared in our hearts. Every day we should be ready, even though He may not come that day. Should we perish, our judgment has come on that day, and our probation has ended. This is the critical moment in each one's life. There are two "comings" of Christ: 1) His coming in judgment; and 2) His coming in the clouds of glory. The most important moment for each of us is the first one. We will not know it. It is as a thief in the night. The second one, we will know. Its hour is to be announced in advance, and every eye will see it. It is this first one that God is pleased to have us know is imminent, and comes to every generation, and at such a time as we think not. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #6 - Testing the PROPHETS
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#108446
02/16/09 04:14 PM
02/16/09 04:14 PM
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That's more a matter of interpretation than anything. If we were living in their day, yes, we would have interpreted their words to apply to "our" day...as we also do now, and has probably been done in every generation after them. Did the disciples understand that the 2300 day prophecy began in 457 BC and ended in 1844 AD, and that it pinpointed the year Jesus began His public ministry, and the year He dead on the cross, and the year probation closed for the nation of Israel? There are two "comings" of Christ: 1) His coming in judgment; and 2) His coming in the clouds of glory. The most important moment for each of us is the first one. We will not know it. It is as a thief in the night. The second one, we will know. Its hour is to be announced in advance, and every eye will see it. It is this first one that God is pleased to have us know is imminent, and comes to every generation, and at such a time as we think not. When the disciples spoke about the nearness of Jesus' coming, were they referring to the first or second coming you mentioned above? Also, in light of what we know about Jesus entering the most holy place in heaven in 1844, was it true that the first coming you mentioned above was imminent for those who lived in the centuries preceding the 17th century?
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