Tom, I cannot wave my hand at certain parts of the OT figuring that somehow it harmonizes with how Jesus conducted Himself in the NT while here in the flesh. Nowhere do I see Jesus renegotiating the covenant in order to work with the Jews while He was here.

Tom, perhaps it would be helpful if you explained to me how you deal with God commanding Moses to kill sinners. I don't understand how the dynamics which resulted in the OC explain why God did it.

No, I don't think would be helpful at all. I think we've spent far too much time on this already. We haven't spent any time doing what I think would be useful, which is to build a model of what God is like based on the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Let's look at Jesus Christ's life, teaching and characters. Let's ask questions in relation to *that*. For example, did Jesus command others to kill? Or to use violence at all? Did Jesus Christ use force to get His way? How did He treat others in general? Was He cruel? Did He command fire to come down from heaven to destroy His enemies? How did He respond when this was suggested?

The SOP tells us that the whole purpose of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God.

Jesus Christ said that what He saw the Father do, He did, and what He heard the Father say, He said. Where did Christ see and hear these things? From the Scriptures. So Jesus Christ is saying, in effect, "Let Me be your picture of God!"

Let's let Christ make clear for us what God looks like. Let's let Him act and speak for the Father, and build a model of what God looks like.

*Then*, after we have a model in place, we can go back and look through the OT and try to figure out where we've been wrong.

Why are you saying this?

Tom, please answer the questions above. Thank you.

To accommodate the Jews in the OT God was forced to negotiate a new covenant. Did Jesus have to do something similar while here?

So, based upon 4, would you say they were already in a state of sinning, when God commanded Moses to kill anyone? What implications would that have?

I was suggesting looking at Jesus Christ's life with questions like these in mind to form a model. I'm not going to go through each one, but to consider one or two, we can see in regards to how Jesus treated people that He was generous, considerate, patient, kind, and not in the least cruel. Some incidents which enlighten us on how He treated others are the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, Simon at his party, and washing His disciples' feet. Of course, there are tons more, but these are some which readily come to my mind which illuminate His character.

Regarding Christ's use of force, I can only think of two incidents which could even be misconstrued as His using force to get His way, which would be the cleansing of the temple and the cursing of the fig tree. Setting these incidents aside for the moment, we see in Christ a totally non-violent person, even anti-violent, both in His actions and His teaching. Considering these two often misunderstood incidents, one was an acted parable, and in the other it was not force which drove those who left out of the temple, but a guilty conscience as divinity flashed through humanity, which was a matter of character, not power.



The new covenant already existed. This is the covenant which God made to Abraham, which God offered to the Jews, but in unbelief they refused. Nobody has been saved except under this covenant.

No, I don't think they were in a state of sinning or in a sinful mood when they asked Moses to inquire of God as to the best way to deal with the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer. They were not hungry for blood as evidenced by the fact they wanted to do the right thing according to God's will.

Is there any evidence of God acting this way in the OT? For example, was God demonstrating these attributes of character when He commanded Moses to kill sinners? If not, is it possible Jesus didn't demonstrate whatever traits were at work when God did such things?


I agree.


I'll rephrase my question. Did Jesus demonstrate offering the Jews the NC and then resorting to the OC because they failed to comply with the conditions of the NC? Initially you brought this up to explain why God commanded Moses to kill sinners. I'm still trying to understand how it helps.

I've been suggesting formulating a model of God from Jesus Christ first, *then* looking at the OT. This can't be done by considering the OT first.

Glad you agree on the comments regarding Jesus Christ and force.



This isn't what happened. What happened is that the Jews were presented the NC, and they responded in unbelief, which is the essence of the OC. This principle was often demonstrated in the life of Christ, the greatest example of this being their putting Christ to death.