I hope you won't mind if I interject something. (Carry on with your foreknowlegde discussion if you like. I'll just post a question that you can pick up when it's convenient . . . ) The traditional Adventist view of our relationship with Christ is that our main goal is character perfection and we acheive that by clinging to the will of Christ regardless of the cost. How does the open view understand the role of staying within God's will?

When we think of buddies we think of equals. God is our friend, but He is also the one who we emulate, the One who is God.

"God is in control but in a self-initiated limited sense for the reason that He will not tamper with our freedom of choice. In that sense God is not completely in control.

Because He knows what and when an event will happen doesn't make Him in control of the event except in the case that He allowed or allows it to happen."

Glad you're joining in Daniel! Open theists would argue that if God has exhaustive definate foreknowledge(EDF), then it is not possible for men to have free will. (I'm not sure if this is a view of all open theists, but it's certainly representative). I will present an argument if anyone is interested.

The fact God is able to accurately predict the future indicates He knows the end from the beginning. He doesn't use logical deduction to guess what might happen. He sees the future from the perpsective of hindsight and eternity. He knows what will happen because He's already seen it happen, like watching a rerun on TV. And He works to ensure things turn out accordingly, because such an outcome is what is right and best for heaven and humanity.

Jesus will not return until the day and hour fixed in time and eternity. The fact He could have returned shortly after 1844, had the conditions been met, is true. However, we can create a rather long list of "what could have been if . . ." but none of it turned out that way because certain conditions were not met. But what could have been is still true.

Therefore, as you say, Tom, Jesus will not return until the time appointed, which means, in one sense, we cannot hinder or hasten the Second Advent. The appointed day and hour of Christ's return is based on everything mankind will do (not, could have or should have done) to fulfill the conditions necessary for Jesus to come again.

Afterwards, when we're in heaven, from the vantage point of hindsight and eternity, we may conclude, looking back on human history, that if so and so had not done such and such, then the return of Christ would been hindered or hastened; but such observations, after the fact, would be merely academic. They would only verify the fixed date itself.

I agree with you on this topic of God's schedule, Mike. But I want to ask why we are told to pray that the last day events won't happen, such as Sunday laws, persecutions, and the Vatican take-over, and such. Maybe we should just pray for God's will to be done instead of begging God not to let things happen that are going to happen on his schedule anyway. What think you?

Yes, that's what makes sense to me. When we do everything we can to prevent Sunday legislation, we are doing what God wants us to do. But we must always pray, Thy will be done. The end result, with or without us, is God works everything out according to His plan. But what a joy it is to cooperate and colabor, in the Spirit, with our heavenly Father and our elder brother!!!

"Jesus will not return until the day and hour fixed in time and eternity. The fact He could have returned shortly after 1844, had the conditions been met, is true. However, we can create a rather long list of "what could have been if . . ." but none of it turned out that way because certain conditions were not met. But what could have been is still true.

Therefore, as you say, Tom, Jesus will not return until the time appointed, which means, in one sense, we cannot hinder or hasten the Second Advent."

I understand that in one sense we cannot hinder or hasten Christ's coming. I do not understand in what sense we can. Either we can or we can't. It can't be both.

Similarly either the date for Christ's coming is fixed or it isn't. If it has been fixed for time and eternity, that means it was fixed in the 1850's when EGW said Christ could have come. But if it was fixed, meaning the date could not be changed, then it could not be changed. In order for Christ to have come in the 1850's the date would have had to have changed.

I do not believe your idea that the actions of human history are similar to a T.V. rerun jibe with inspiration. The injunction to hasten Christ's coming is one example. Here is another.

The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that for our redemption all heaven was imperiled, that Christ risked all, and that God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss. However, if human history were like a movie on a DVD say, then God would know that Christ would succeed, and there would be no risk. In what sense can it be said that "all heaven was imperiled" according to your view of how God sees the future?

More questions. Assuming human history is analagous to a DVD, how many DVD's is it analgous to? Is there just one DVD? Could God have created other DVD's, or was the one that transpired inevitable? e.g., could He have created a different Adam and Eve?; could human history have been different that it is?; if it is inevitable, at what point did it become so?

Thanks Mike for your responses!

Only one DVD, not several. Since God is perfect, there can be only one perfect plan, not several equally perfect options. God cannot settle for less than best, and still be God. The concept of a God demands that He be absolutely perfect. And so He is.

We cannot hinder or hasten the coming of Christ because we cannot alter God's perfect plan. Allowing Lucifer and mankind to fall was part of His perfect plan. He had the choice not to create them, or create anything endowed with the freedom to choose sin and rebellion. But He chose to create them knowing Lucifier and mankind would fall, and that it would require the death of Jesus in order to redeem them. It is all part of His perfect plan to make eternity a safe place for the rest of us.

God knew Jesus would succeed on the Cross. Nevertheless, such foreknowledge in no way lessened His grief and torment as Jesus hung dying, alone and forsaken. The idea that God could not have suffered had He known Jesus would be successful overlooks the character and nature of our loving, heavenly Father. In fact, knowing the end from the beginning makes it three times as hard, because He suffered waiting for it to happen, when it was happening, and knowing it has happened.

If I am understanding you correctly, you say God could have made any DVD He wanted, but of all the DVD's possible, He chose the one which has the world as we find it, a world full of sin, misery, pain and death. If God chose this DVD over a DVD without sin, then God is responsible for the creation of sin and not Satan since God could have chosen not to create the DVD but Satan could not have not sinned. He's also responsible for all sin, since nothing can happen other than what's on the DVD.

If we cannot hinder or hasten the coming of Christ, then Ellen White is wrong (as well as Peter, although she develops the idea more than Peter did). She writes that it is not only the privelge of the Christian to look forward to Christ's coming, but to hasten it. She writes, for example, that had God's plan been followed in the years following 1888 that Christ quickly would have come. If your view is correct, then Christ could not have come back then, which you seem to be admitting by stating that we cannot hasten His coming.

Finally you did not address my questions relating to heaven being imperiled for our redemaption and God sending His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss. You made comments about God's suffering, but I didn't say anything about God's suffering. I'm asking how it can be said that God sent Christ at a risk or how heaven could be said to have been imperiled if there was no chance that Christ could have failed.

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Quote of previous post removed. - Daryl

[ October 03, 2004, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]