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Re: Does Scripture explain why Christ had to die?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108686
02/20/09 04:16 AM
02/20/09 04:16 AM
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SDA Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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Ellen wrote: Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}
In the plan of redemption there must be the shedding of blood, for death must come in consequence of man's sin. The beasts for sacrificial offerings were to prefigure Christ. In the slain victim, man was to see the fulfillment for the time being of God's word, "Thou shalt surely die." And the flowing of the blood from the victim would also signify an atonement. There was no virtue in the blood of animals; but the shedding of the blood of beasts was to point forward to a Redeemer who would one day come to the world and die for the sins of men. And thus Christ would fully vindicate His Father's law. {Con 21.3} These are the clearest inspired statements there are in support of the penal substitution view. Tom, however, believes they clearly disprove it. To which I responded -- that I would really like to see the post or link where those statements from Ellen White were shown to clearly disprove the doctrine of penal substition (substitutionary atoning sacrifice). in Christ, Bob
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Re: Does Scripture explain why Christ had to die?
[Re: Tom]
#108687
02/20/09 04:21 AM
02/20/09 04:21 AM
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SDA Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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PS - Tom, it is difficult to discuss why Jesus had to die without including the penal substitution aspect of it. I understand that for someone like yourself, operating from the paradigm you have, would have difficulty doing so, so I'm not objecting to the subject coming up here, just to the topic being derailed. Let's remember the topic is if Scripture is clear as to why Jesus Christ had to die. As long as we're discussing penal substitution in this context, that's fine. If you wish to discuss whether or not it is true, let's bring up another thread for that, which already discusses this, OK? I have to admit - I find that point to be illusive. How can you have a topic about whether the Bible clearly identifies something if you do not define what the something is. I can say "does the Bible clearly say why kinds reproduce only after the same kind" and then point to the striped pole experiment of Jacob. But without some kind of definition for what the thing is -- it is hard to say if my answer is valid or not. You must define the terms to solve the problem. in Christ, Bob
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Re: Does Scripture explain why Christ had to die?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108690
02/20/09 06:10 AM
02/20/09 06:10 AM
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SDA Active Member 2024
Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
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The law does not provide pardon. It either condones or condemns sinners. Only God can pardon and save sinners. In this regard the law is not a transcript of God's character. can you show me where it is ever written that the "law" is not always a transcript of Gods character. we do understand the law to be the 10 commandments, dont we? and the 10 commandmensts are love, are they not?
Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?
Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Does Scripture explain why Christ had to die?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108696
02/20/09 12:48 PM
02/20/09 12:48 PM
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SDA Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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PS - Tom, it is difficult to discuss why Jesus had to die without including the penal substitution aspect of it. Law and justice requires God to execute the death penalty the instant people sin. The law does not provide pardon. It either condones or condemns sinners. Only God can pardon and save sinners. In this regard the law is not a transcript of God's character. That is true - as Gal 3 points out the law provides/enables/secures no salvation at all because it is of the form of rule + penalty, not in the form of rule+forgiveness. If the Law Had been written in a rule+forgiveness manner - Christ died needlessly (as Paul also points out in Gal 3). in Christ, Bob
Last edited by Bobryan; 02/20/09 12:49 PM.
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Re: Does Scripture explain why Christ had to die?
[Re: teresaq]
#108707
02/20/09 04:25 PM
02/20/09 04:25 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The law does not provide pardon. It either condones or condemns sinners. Only God can pardon and save sinners. In this regard the law is not a transcript of God's character. can you show me where it is ever written that the "law" is not always a transcript of Gods character. we do understand the law to be the 10 commandments, dont we? and the 10 commandmensts are love, are they not? I doubt I can find a quote that says the law is not always a transcript of God's character. And, yes, the law commands us to be loving like God. Nevertheless, it is also a fact that the law, unlike God, cannot pardon or save sinners. It can only condone or condemn. Only God can pardon and save.
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Re: Does Scripture explain why Christ had to die?
[Re: Bobryan]
#108708
02/20/09 04:32 PM
02/20/09 04:32 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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My argument with Sabbath is that no matter how clear a point is from the Bible - it does not mean that all will recognize it. MM Bob, are you saying you've heard of Christians who disagree that the fourth commandment commanded the Jews to observe the seventh-day Sabbath on Saturday? If so, please post the online links so I can see it for myself. Thank you. My reference to Exodus 20:8-11 and clarity was to point out that all the texts that speak to the subject of Sabbath are clear Is 66 in the New Heaven and New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath... Shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship". Showing the eternal unnending nature of Sabbath with the "scope" being "all mankind" Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was Made for MANKIND not mankind Made for the Sabbath" speaking to the making of both -- in Gen 1-2:3 Showing the origin "making" of the Sabbath and the scope to be all "mankind". Exo 20:8-11 showing the Sabbath memorial to be moral code in the heart of the 10 commandments - affirming both the summary of Creation week as a literal 7 day event and affirming the Sabbath as a pre-sin pre-salvation concept applicable at the level of moral law. ----------------- My point stated in brief was that no matter how clear this is in scripture -- not all will agree to it (due to the flaws in human nature - not a flaw in the text). In Christ, Bob Thank you for sharing, Bob, but my question was aimed at a different answer. Again, are you saying you've heard of Christians who disagree that the fourth commandment commanded the Jews to observe the seventh-day Sabbath on Saturday? I'm not asking this question because I disagree with what you posted above, I very much agree with you, however, I haven't met a Christian yet who doesn't believe the Jews (including Jesus) observed Saturday in obedience to the 4th commandment.
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Re: Does Scripture explain why Christ had to die?
[Re: Tom]
#108709
02/20/09 04:47 PM
02/20/09 04:47 PM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: Again, the operative word here is "clearly". And, yes, Jesus did not clearly explain to His disciples why He had to die.
T: We're not discussing what Jesus explained to His disciples, only what we see in Scripture. Of course, Jesus explained many things to them which are not recorded in Scripture, so we can't really comment on that. Exactly. This is my point, namely, that the Bible does not record Jesus clearly explaining why He had to die. M: Long years of debate and disagreement is proof Jesus did not clearly explain it.
T: No it's not. Bob's argument regarding the Sabbath refutes this idea. I'm waiting for him to clarify his point. M: Nor did any other Bible writer. Yes, it is implied, but it is not so clear as to prevent any debate or disagreement.
T: Again, you're suffering under a false assumption here . . .
M: Please be careful, Tom. This kind of speech is harmful and counterproductive.
T: . . . which is that the understanding of spiritual things which is that if something is clearly written it will be understood. As Bob pointed out, the Scripture is clear regarding the Sabbath, yet there has been much debate and disagreement regarding this.
I know you think that the SOP was clear about this, as opposed to Scripture, which you think wasn't, but you're criteria, applied to her writings would have her categorized as not clear as well. There have been long years of debate and disagreement regarding why Christ had to die viz a viz her writings, for over 50 years I think. So, again, if that's the criteria we use to determine whether or not an inspired writing is clear or not, we would be constrained to conclude that no inspired writing is clear on this subject. God cleared up long years of debate in the way He clearly revealed the truth about it through the SOP. PS - Tom, it is difficult to discuss why Jesus had to die without including the penal substitution aspect of it.
T: Let's remember the topic is if Scripture is clear as to why Jesus Christ had to die. Okay.
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Re: Does Scripture explain why Christ had to die?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#108748
02/21/09 01:59 PM
02/21/09 01:59 PM
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SDA Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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Thank you for sharing, Bob, but my question was aimed at a different answer. Again, are you saying you've heard of Christians who disagree that the fourth commandment commanded the Jews to observe the seventh-day Sabbath on Saturday? Yes - there are those who claim we can not know the days of the week not only from Creation but also from Sinai to today. Even today you find re-invention of the 4th commandment as "one day in seven" and when you ask them about "THE Seventh-day" they argue that creation week is not literal so no day was even possible - it was an arbitrary selection by the Hebrews at sinai... etc etc. There are even Christians that claim that we do not know which day was the Sabbath of Christ's day - - never mind the Sabbath of Sinai. I very much agree with you, however, I haven't met a Christian yet who doesn't believe the Jews (including Jesus) observed Saturday in obedience to the 4th commandment. I assure you they exist. in Christ, Bob
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Re: Does Scripture explain why Christ had to die?
[Re: Bobryan]
#108755
02/21/09 06:12 PM
02/21/09 06:12 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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M: Again, the operative word here is "clearly". And, yes, Jesus did not clearly explain to His disciples why He had to die.
T: We're not discussing what Jesus explained to His disciples, only what we see in Scripture. Of course, Jesus explained many things to them which are not recorded in Scripture, so we can't really comment on that.
M:Exactly. This is my point, namely, that the Bible does not record Jesus clearly explaining why He had to die. You didn't say this. You said, "Jesus did not clearly explain to His disciples why He had to die." He could have explained things to them that weren't recorded in Scripture. At any rate, you're already said a couple of times that Christ didn't explain why He had to die, which I think is an amazing thing for someone to think, but not as amazing as thinking that it's not explained anywhere in Scripture. M: Long years of debate and disagreement is proof Jesus did not clearly explain it.
T: No it's not. Bob's argument regarding the Sabbath refutes this idea.
M:I'm waiting for him to clarify his point. What debate and disagreement are you thinking of? Anyway, to extend your logic, we'd have to conclude that nothing is clearly explained in Scripture, since there is nary a tenant that one can hold that different groups will disagree about. Here are some examples: 1.Was Jesus Christ God? 2.Is the Godhead comprised of three persons? 3.Should we keep the Sunday? 4.Is there a heavenly sanctuary? 5.How is one justified? 6.When one dies, what happens? 7.What happens during the millenium? 8.How long are the wicked punished in hell? 9.What law is Paul speaking of in Galatians? 10.Is it OK to eat pork? I arbitrarily chose ten items, but one could extend this list to include hundreds of things which are debated from Scripture. So to apply your logic would be to assert that the Bible teaches virtually nothing clearly, since virtually any point you can make from Scripture has been the subject of debate and disagreement. God cleared up long years of debate in the way He clearly revealed the truth about it through the SOP.
The long years of debate and disagreement continue to this day, even on this very forum. So apparently she was no clearer than Scripture. We're debating the meaning of Christ's death in her writings. We're debating the punishment of the wicked. We're debating the human nature which Christ took. We're debating the Trinity. We're debating Christ's divinity. We're debating what being born again means, what it means to be converted, what justification by faith is; the list goes on and on and on. So if you're going to use as criteria whether or not something is debated is disagreed upon, then we'd have to conclude the SOP is not clear on these points either. But let's back off a second, and get back to some questions I was asking earlier, which haven't been addressed. For the sake of argument, let's assume you're correct, and God clearly explained things through Ellen White, but not in Scripture. (By the way, this explains your heavy reliance upon her, since you see her as clearer than Scripture, which is something I had wondered about) This would mean that: 1.Until EGW came along, nobody understand why Christ had to die (unless they got lucky and guessed right, or some uninspired person explained why) 2.Even today, non-SDA's don't understand why Christ had to die, not having access to EGW's writings. These points follow from your idea that only EGW clearly explained why Christ had to die, don't they?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Does Scripture explain why Christ had to die?
[Re: Tom]
#108763
02/22/09 12:18 AM
02/22/09 12:18 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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There are even Christians that claim that we do not know which day was the Sabbath of Christ's day - - never mind the Sabbath of Sinai. Bob, thank you for saying so, but please post a quote or two or an online link. Since I've never met or heard of anyone who believes time is so messed up we cannot identify the day of the week Jesus kept as the Sabbath day - naturally you can imagine my curiosity.
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