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Re: Lesson #8 - The Authority of the PROPHETS
[Re: Daryl]
#108381
02/15/09 03:19 PM
02/15/09 03:19 PM
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From the Sabbath Afternoon Section: Memory Text: “Do not despise prophecies. Test all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:20, 21, NKJV). All through the Bible, a theme recurs: God talks to people through His prophets, and the people either accept or reject what’s being said. Of course, by rejecting the words of the prophets, they’re not rejecting the prophets; they’re rejecting the One who sent them.
It’s a very serious thing, then, to claim to speak in the name of God. If you claim it, and are, then you are a mouthpiece for the Creator of the universe, no small responsibility. People have been delegated authority to speak for the boss of the company, or the president or prime minister—but to speak for the Lord? That’s heavy. Unfortunately, much of biblical history is a story of God speaking through His prophets and of people rejecting what was said. How careful we need be not to make the same mistake today.
Here's the link to this whole section:http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/09a/less08nkjv.html#sabIt ends by saying how careful we need to be not to make the same mistake today of rejecting what was said by a prophet of God. Are we any different today of rejecting the message of a prophet as they were back then?
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Re: Lesson #8 - The Authority of the PROPHETS
[Re: Daryl]
#108627
02/19/09 02:22 PM
02/19/09 02:22 PM
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Check out Sunday's Section in this week's lesson study material:http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/09a/less08nkjv.html#sun According to the arrangement God put in place, Moses was literally “to become God” to Aaron (see Exod. 4:16) and Aaron was to become Moses' mouthpiece or “prophet” (Exod. 7:1). This defines accurately the intimate relationship between God and all His prophets; they were His mouthpieces, His spokespersons. Furthermore, as in the case of Moses and Aaron—God “taught” all His prophets what they were to do in regard to being a mouthpiece. Moses was, however, somewhat of a reluctant prophet.
According to her own testimony, Ellen White was reluctant when first called by the Lord, as well. “In my second vision, about a week after the first, the Lord gave me a view of the trials through which I must pass, and told me that I must go and relate to others what He had revealed to me. It was shown me that my labors would meet with great opposition, and that my heart would be rent with anguish; but that the grace of God would be sufficient to sustain me through all. After I came out of this vision I was exceedingly troubled, for it pointed out my duty to go out among the people and present the truth. My health was so poor that I was in constant bodily suffering, and to all appearance had but a short time to live. I was only seventeen years of age, small and frail, unused to society, and naturally so timid and retiring that it was painful for me to meet strangers.
“For several days, and far into the night, I prayed that this burden might be removed from me, and laid upon some one more capable of bearing it. But the light of duty did not change, and the words of the angel sounded continually in my ears, ‘Make known to others what I have revealed to you.’ ”—Ellen G. White, Life Sketches of Ellen G. White, p. 69.
How does Ellen White compare with the reluctant prophets and the not-reluctant ones?
Did this make her any more or any less a prophet?
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Re: Lesson #8 - The Authority of the PROPHETS
[Re: Daryl]
#108634
02/19/09 06:39 PM
02/19/09 06:39 PM
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To start with, Ellen White never viewed herself as a prophet and never approved to make her an authority. James, Uriah and Ellen and other pioneers made it clear that the Bible is the correct source for doctrinal truth. They(Our Pioneers including EGW) prohibited Ellen White's writings from being viewed as an authoritative source of doctrine. Which is the exact opposite of how the White Estate promoted Ellen White during the entire 20th century. Listen what James White says on this point: Every Christian is therefore duty bound to take the Bible as a perfect rule of faith and duty. He should pray fervently to be aided by the Holy Spirit in searching the Scriptures for the whole truth, and for his whole duty. He is not at liberty to turn from them to learn his duty through any of the gifts. We say the very moment he does, he places the gifts in a wrong place, and takes an extremely dangerous position. (James White, Review & Herald, October 3, 1854) Towards the end of the 19th century and more so in the 20th, there was always a class of persons that wanted to skip the Bible and use Ellen White as a shortcut to truth and they wanted to make her into an authoritative source for doctrine and a test of church fellowship. But James White made it clear that it was a great error. He would of never approved on how a number of people in Battle Creek, after his death, viewed Ellen White. Nor would he have approved how the 20th century leaders promoted Ellen White and made her into an infallible source of doctrinal authority. James White would have hotly condemned the White Estate for the way they promoted Ellen White and he would have demanded that they repent and set the record straight. Listen to James White on this point: There is a class of persons who are determined to have it that the Review and its conductors make the view of Mrs. White a Test of doctrine and Christian fellowship. What has the Review to do with Mrs. White views? The sentiments published in its columns are all drawn from the Holy Scriptures. No writer of the Review has ever referred to them as authority on any point. The Review for five years has not published one of them. Its motto has been, The Bible and the Bible alone, the only rule of faith and duty;
It should be here understood that all these views as held by the body of Sabbath-keepers, were brought out from the Scriptures before Mrs. White had any view in regard to them. These sentiments are founded upon the Scriptures as their only basis. (James White, Review and Herald, Oct. 16 1855).
Every Christian is therefore duty bound to take the Bible as a perfect rule of faith and duty. He should pray fervently to be aided by the Holy Spirit in searching the Scriptures for the whole truth, and for his whole duty. He is not at liberty to turn from them to learn his duty through any of the gifts. We say the very moment he does, he places the gifts in a wrong place, and takes an extremely dangerous position. (James White, Review & Herald, October 3, 1854)).
Now we shall go right along believing and teaching the word of the Lord. This is our business. And if we choose to believe Mrs. W.'s views, which harmonize with the Word, this is our business, and nobody else’s. But if we should leave the word, and look for a rule of faith and duty by some new revelation, then it would be the business of the Church to silence me as a religious teacher. (James White, Gifts of the Gospel Church, p.14)
In fact, while the 20th century church incorrectly promoted Ellen White as an authority for doctrine, and even made belief in her a part of their written fundamental creed in 1980, the Battle Creek SDA's did not do this. Belief in Ellen White was not a test of fellowship, nor was she promoted as such. Listen again to James White on this test point in 1871:
They (SDA's) believe in the perpetuity of spiritual gifts. They believe that the spirit of prophecy has rested upon Mrs. White, and that she is called to do a special work at this time, among this people. They do not, however, make belief in this work a test of fellowship. (Review and Herald, June 13, 1871)). Here what Uriah Smith has to say and is in agreement witht the Protestant position of the Battle Creek SDA's : The Protestant principle of the Bible and the Bible alone, is of itself good and true; and we stand upon it as firmly as anyone can; but when reiterated in connection with outspoken denunciations of the visions, it has specious appearance for evil. So used, it contains a covert insinuation, most effectually calculated to warp the judgment of the unguarded, that to believe the visions is to leave the Bible, and to cling to the Bible, is to discard the visions. . . . When we claim to stand on the Bible and the Bible alone, we bind ourselves to receive, unequivocally and fully, all that the Bible teaches. Uriah Smith, Editor, Review and Herald, Jan. 13, 1863 Ellen White was also in full agreement with her husband and Uriah Smith. She never claimed to have doctrinal authority as the SDA church teaches today. She was a Protestant, and therefore she understood and upheld the Bible as the only rule of faith and doctrine. Listen to Ellen White on this point: When God's Word is studied, comprehended, and obeyed, a bright light will be reflected to the world; new truths, received and acted upon, will bind us in strong bonds to Jesus. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this Holy Word will be in harmony. Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible. Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition, as did our Master, saying, It is written. Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed; The Bible our rule of faith and discipline. Ellen White, Review and Herald, Dec. 15, 1885.
We must study to find out the best way in which to take up the review of our experiences from the beginning of our work, when we separated from the churches, and went forward step by step in the light that God gave us. We then took the position that the Bible, and the Bible only, was to be our guide; and we are never to depart from this position. We were given wonderful manifestations of the power of God. (Lt 105, 1903. 31)
But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. (The Great Controversy, p. 595)
The words of the Bible, and the Bible alone, should be heard from the pulpit. (Prophets and Kings, p. 626).
Many from among our own people are writing to me, asking with earnest determination the privilege of using my writings to give force to certain subjects that they wish to present to the people in such a way as to leave a deep impression upon them. It is true that there is a reason why some of their matters should be presented; but I would not venture to give my approval in using the Testimonies in this way, or to sanction the placing of matter, which is good in itself in the way which they propose. (Ellen White to Brother Littlejohn, Aug. 3, 1894)
Don't you quote Sister White. I don't want you ever to quote Sister White until you get your vantage ground where you know where you are. Quote the Bible. Talk the Bible. It is full of meat, full of fatness. Carry it right out in your life, and you will know more Bible than you know now. (Spaulding-Magan Collection, p. 174).
The testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God's Word is the unerring standard. The Testimonies are not to take the place of the Word.... Let all prove the positions from the Scriptures and substantiate every point they claim as truth from the revealed Word of God. (Evangelism, p. 256)
The Bible is our rule of faith and doctrine. (Gospel Workers, p. 249)
Believers are not to rest in suppositions and ill-defined ideas of what constitutes truth. Their faith must be firmly founded upon the Word of God. (Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 708).
Blessings
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Re: Lesson #8 - The Authority of the PROPHETS
[Re: Elle]
#108655
02/19/09 09:12 PM
02/19/09 09:12 PM
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Elle, I get the point that Ellen White did not view herself as equal to the Bible. However, it is also my perspective that Paul and Peter would have been surprised at having their letters converted into sacred canon as well. When those men spoke of the scriptures, they were not referring to any part of what we now call the "New Testament." They may not have viewed themselves as prophets. Yet they certainly were. Mrs. White, regardless of her own view on the matter, was a prophet. Her saying otherwise means nothing. Besides, I have yet to see a quote where she denies being a prophet. She did not need to proclaim herself--the messages she bore spoke the truth for themselves. As for this statement which is quoted in the post above: The words of the Bible, and the Bible alone, should be heard from the pulpit. (Prophets and Kings, p. 626). That is a text out of context. If I followed that one sentence to its logical conclusion, it would relieve ministers of a huge burden--sermon preparation. They would need only to read from the Bible, and nothing more. Now, since we realize the folly of such an extreme, and do not fault our ministers for shaping their messages in their own words, it becomes immediately apparent that to quote a prophet like Mrs. White is a solid step up from speaking their own thoughts which were not equally inspired. I agree that all of our doctrines should be Biblical. I agree that we should study the Bible more. But I would seriously question those who would try to hinder others from presenting the messages of Ellen White, when she was shown by God that her messages should be spread like the "leaves of autumn." Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #8 - The Authority of the PROPHETS
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#108661
02/19/09 10:29 PM
02/19/09 10:29 PM
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Green, Ellen was not a OT prophet nor an Apostle. She had spiritual gifts and that's all. The Pioneer clearly understood that and so did she. PP:The words of the Bible, and the Bible alone, should be heard from the pulpit. (Prophets and Kings, p. 626). Green: That is a text out of context. If I followed that one sentence to its logical conclusion, it would relieve ministers of a huge burden--sermon preparation. They would need only to read from the Bible, and nothing more. You're taking this to an extreme. You know what I was saying and what it means. Ellen White really did have visions, as did others during that time period. And in spite of them, she also embraced false doctrines. This cannot be denied. However, this situation is not uncommon as we have the disciples believed that only the Jews cold be saved by Christ. We do not deny that they had spiritual gifts because of their errors. So this idea that having a spiritual gift makes a person infallible is very wrong. Having spiritual gift does not make them prophets. It is a fabrication from the White Estate. They should have known better, because this issue about Ellen White being wrong about doctrine came up very early in SDA history. In the 1850's, it was discovered that Ellen White had kept the Sabbath incorrectly for almost a decade. Even though she had a number of visions about the Sabbath. She learned of her doctrinal error from others who studied this point from the Bible. From those that had neither visions nor dreams. J. N, Andrews became famous for proving to all that Ellen White, even with her spiritual gifts, did not have any doctrinal authority, much less infallibility. She could be wrong about doctrine, just like anyone else. And she was wrong about when the Sabbath began and ended. And so too were Bates and many others. Even as they were also wrong about other things as well. But it did not matter to Ellen White's reputation because she was not viewed as having doctrinal authority in Battle Creek. Nor was she viewed as a scholar, like Smith or Andrews. It was the White Estate that fabricated this idea about a prophet must always be correct, and so forth. It is utter nonsense. Thus, Ellen White admitted, in front of the entire Battle Creek Church, that Andrews was correct. The facts changed her view. Why? Because all doctrine must be based on the Bible alone. Not on her visions. This was the correct Protestant position of the 19th century SDA's. Why did the White Estate fail to promote this part of church history? They knew all about it.
Blessings
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Re: Lesson #8 - The Authority of the PROPHETS
[Re: Elle]
#108667
02/19/09 11:30 PM
02/19/09 11:30 PM
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Green, Ellen was not a OT prophet nor an Apostle. She had spiritual gifts and that's all. The Pioneer clearly understood that and so did she. PP:The words of the Bible, and the Bible alone, should be heard from the pulpit. (Prophets and Kings, p. 626). Green: That is a text out of context. If I followed that one sentence to its logical conclusion, it would relieve ministers of a huge burden--sermon preparation. They would need only to read from the Bible, and nothing more. You're taking this to an extreme. You know what I was saying and what it means. Ellen White really did have visions, as did others during that time period. And in spite of them, she also embraced false doctrines. This cannot be denied. However, this situation is not uncommon as we have the disciples believed that only the Jews cold be saved by Christ. We do not deny that they had spiritual gifts because of their errors. So this idea that having a spiritual gift makes a person infallible is very wrong. Having spiritual gift does not make them prophets. It is a fabrication from the White Estate. They should have known better, because this issue about Ellen White being wrong about doctrine came up very early in SDA history. In the 1850's, it was discovered that Ellen White had kept the Sabbath incorrectly for almost a decade. Even though she had a number of visions about the Sabbath. She learned of her doctrinal error from others who studied this point from the Bible. From those that had neither visions nor dreams. J. N, Andrews became famous for proving to all that Ellen White, even with her spiritual gifts, did not have any doctrinal authority, much less infallibility. She could be wrong about doctrine, just like anyone else. And she was wrong about when the Sabbath began and ended. And so too were Bates and many others. Even as they were also wrong about other things as well. But it did not matter to Ellen White's reputation because she was not viewed as having doctrinal authority in Battle Creek. Nor was she viewed as a scholar, like Smith or Andrews. It was the White Estate that fabricated this idea about a prophet must always be correct, and so forth. It is utter nonsense. Thus, Ellen White admitted, in front of the entire Battle Creek Church, that Andrews was correct. The facts changed her view. Why? Because all doctrine must be based on the Bible alone. Not on her visions. This was the correct Protestant position of the 19th century SDA's. Why did the White Estate fail to promote this part of church history? They knew all about it. Elle, I am not taking this to an extreme. I am merely pointing out the extreme. Many people are now proclaiming that Ellen White should never be used from the pulpit. They quote sentences, out of context, just like the one I focused on here, to support their case. Would you agree with such reasoning? or would you concur with me that to quote a single sentence out of context like this is not a responsible use of Mrs. White? I realize you did not extract that sentence yourself--you have quoted from another source. The point I was making had nothing to do with your point, actually. It had everything to do with how some people would construe those words. Now, let's focus on the "spiritual gifts" you have brought up. I agree with you that Ellen White was given spiritual gifts. However, I fear your statement that "she had spiritual gifts and that's all" will be misunderstood. I would offer the following reasons: 1) You have used it in a context which implies she was not a prophet: "Ellen was not a OT prophet nor an Apostle." 2) Spiritual gifts include many things (see texts below), and not just the gift of prophecy. 3) In light of #2 above, not all recipients of "spiritual gifts" are prophets. In fact, every member of the body of Christ receives spiritual gift(s). Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. (1 Corinthians 12:1, KJV) ... Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (1 Corinthians 12:4-11, KJV) ... And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (1 Corinthians 12:28-31, KJV)
Thus, it would appear that Paul ranks the gift of apostleship highest, followed by the gift of prophecy, then the gift of teaching, etc. From my viewpoint, Ellen White was both prophet and apostle. She carried our Adventist message to Europe, to Australia, to many parts of America, helping to establish churches, schools, sanitariums, and much more. So, from my perspective, to say someone has "spiritual gifts and that's all" is a rather unusual way of saying that someone is indeed very special. We are told to "covet" these gifts! Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #8 - The Authority of the PROPHETS
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#108668
02/19/09 11:34 PM
02/19/09 11:34 PM
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Besides...if Baalam was a prophet, Mrs. White was many times more worthy of the title. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Lesson #8 - The Authority of the PROPHETS
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#108671
02/20/09 12:43 AM
02/20/09 12:43 AM
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Continuing one, I think Tuesday's Section is also obvious: http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/09a/less08nkjv.html#tueThe Bible is the authoritative written Word of God. Ellen White, as did Jesus Christ, upheld the Bible as the authoritative written Word of God. “He [Christ] pointed to the Scriptures as of unquestionable authority, and we should do the same. The Bible is to be presented as the word of the infinite God, as the end of all controversy and the foundation of all faith.”—Ellen G. White, Christ’s Object Lessons, pp. 39, 40.
All through her life Mrs. White exalted the Word of God. In regard to the controversy between science and Scripture she wrote: “There should be a settled belief in the divine authority of God's Holy Word. The Bible is not to be tested by men's ideas of science. Human knowledge is an unreliable guide.”—Ellen G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 114.
In 1909 she attended her last General Conference session. At the close of her last sermon she picked up the Bible, opened it, and held it out on extended hands. “ ‘Brethren and Sisters,’ ” she said, “ ‘I commend unto you this Book.’ ”—Arthur L. White, Ellen G. White: The Later Elmshaven Years, p. 197.
Of course, the only existing Scriptures at the time of Christ was what we know today as the Old Testament, however, Ellen White upheld both the OT and the NT as the authoritative written Word of God.
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