Now if God must kill those who disobey Him, the implication is that sin is not to bad, except for God's disliking of it. That is, if God would simply leave those alone who sin, they could get along forever.

Ellen was also discussing justice in the Bible. I merely compared his and her observations and conclusions. They are very much different. Where he and she contradict one another I side with her. For example, I agree with the way she contrasts mercy and justice in the following passage:

The One who has stood as our intercessor; who hears all penitential prayers and confessions; who is represented with a rainbow, the symbol of grace and love, encircling His head, is soon to cease His work in the heavenly sanctuary. Grace and mercy will then descend from the throne, and justice will take their place. He for whom His people have looked will assume His right--the office of Supreme Judge (RH Jan. 1, 1889). {7BC 989.11}

Obviously mercy and justice are not one and the same aspects of the plan of salvation. Mercy serves on the throne until justice takes it place. They do not serve on the throne simultaneously. "Then I saw Jesus lay off His priestly attire and clothe Himself with His most kingly robes. . . And as mercy's sweet voice died away, fear and horror seized the wicked." {SR 404.1} "But the door of mercy is closed to the wicked, no more prayers are offered in their behalf, after probation ends." {3BC 1150.7}

She goes on to explain what happens when mercy and justice trade places on the throne:


"When that limit is reached, then the offers of mercy are withdrawn, and the ministration of judgment begins."

The world is a theater; the actors, its inhabitants, are preparing to act their part in the last great drama. With the great masses of mankind, there is no unity, except as men confederate to accomplish their selfish purposes. God is looking on. His purposes in regard to His rebellious subjects will be fulfilled. The world has not been given into the hands of men, though God is permitting the elements of confusion and disorder to bear sway for a season. A power from beneath is working to bring about the last great scenes in the drama,--Satan coming as Christ, and working with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in those who are binding themselves together in secret societies. Those who are yielding to the passion for confederation are working out the plans of the enemy. The cause will be followed by the effect.--Testimonies, vol. 8, pp. 27, 28. {ChS 50.1}

Never did this message apply with greater force than it applies today. More and more the world is setting at naught the claims of God. Men have become bold in transgression. The wickedness of the inhabitants of the world has almost filled up the measure of their iniquity. This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it. The substitution of the laws of men for the law of God, the exaltation, by merely human authority, of Sunday in place of the Bible Sabbath, is the last act in the drama. When this substitution becomes universal, God will reveal Himself. He will arise in His majesty to shake terribly the earth. He will come out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the world for their iniquity, and the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.--Testimonies, vol. 7, p. 141. 51 {ChS 50.2}


We are standing on the threshold of the crisis of the ages. In quick succession the judgments of God will follow one another,--fire, and flood, and earthquake, with war and bloodshed. We are not to be surprised at this time by events both great and decisive; for the angel of mercy cannot remain much longer to shelter the impenitent.-- Prophets and Kings, p. 278. {ChS 51.1}

We are standing upon the threshold of great and solemn events. Prophecies are fulfilling. Strange, eventful history is being recorded in the books of heaven. Everything in our world is in agitation. There are wars, and rumors of wars. The nations are angry, and the time of the dead has come, that they should be judged. Events are changing to bring about the day of God which hasteth greatly. Only a moment of time, as it were, yet remains. But while already nation is rising against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, there is not now a general engagement. As yet the four winds are held until the servants of God shall be sealed in their foreheads. Then the powers of earth will marshal their forces for the last great battle.-- Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 14. {ChS 51.5}

The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they shall not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid His angels loose the winds, there shall be such a scene of strife as no pen can picture.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 408. {ChS 52.1}

The days in which we live are solemn and important. The Spirit of God is gradually but surely being withdrawn from the earth. Plagues and judgments are already falling upon the despisers of the grace of God. The calamities by land and sea, the unsettled state of society, the alarms of war, are portentous. They forecast approaching events of the greatest magnitude. The agencies of evil are combining their forces, and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones.--Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 11. {ChS 52.2}

The time is at hand when there will be sorrow in the world that no human balm can heal. The Spirit of God is being withdrawn. Disasters by sea and by land follow one another in quick succession. How frequently we hear of earthquakes and tornadoes, of destruction by fire and flood, with great loss of life and property! Apparently these calamities are capricious outbreaks of disorganized, unregulated forces of nature, wholly beyond the control of man; but in them all, God's purpose may be read. They are among the agencies by which He seeks to arouse men and women to a sense of their danger.--Prophets and Kings, p. 277. {ChS 52.3}

We are living in the midst of an "epidemic of crime," at which thoughtful, God-fearing men everywhere stand aghast. The corruption that prevails, it is beyond the power of the human pen to describe. Every day brings fresh revelations of political strife, bribery, and fraud. Every day brings its heart-sickening record of violence and lawlessness, of indifference to human suffering, of brutal, fiendish destruction of human life. Every day testifies to the increase of insanity, murder, and suicide. Who can doubt that satanic agencies are at work among men with increasing activity to distract and corrupt the mind, and defile and destroy the body?--Ministry of Healing, pp. 142, 143. {ChS 53.2}

teresa:im asking where it specifically says, if you/we dont live up to the perfect law of love, live up to Gods perfect loving character, then He will kill us, or words/thoughts to that effect....

hmmmmm, interesting.

It is true that the evil in man and the evil in Satan will freely employ their own methods to cause damage and loss of life on earth.

But toasting both of them in the lake of fire is not the act of Satan and is not the act of man.

Destroying the world by the flood in 2Peter 3 is claimed as the act of God. It is claimed as the act of God in Genesis 6 -- and yes - it was certainly supernatural. Nothing at all natural about it.

Just as there is nothing natural about the 2nd coming or the sword that comes from Jesus mouth in Rev 19 and "the REST were SLAIN by the sword that comes from His Mouth".

Ellen White speaks of the "destroying angel" in Egypt and again at the end of time - the destroying angel will be watching for the "mark" the "seal of God" and is not killing those who are marked who have the seal of God -- according to Ellen White.

Paul speaks of this in 2Thess 1 as "dealing out retribution" when the Lord Jesus is "revealed in flaming fire" with His "Holy Angels" at the 2nd Coming.

in Christ,

Bob

first, i am still waiting for the answer to my question at top. im not able to find where it says God will kill us for not living up to the law.

Bob said
The one mentioned in Roman 3 that states that the law places all the world under condemnation - that every mouth should be closed -- everyone condemned for there is "no one who seeks after God -- no not one".

The one in Gal 3 that says that there is no salvation at all under the law and that as many as are under the law are under a curse - for all have sinned.

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108694#Post108694

The one in Romans 6 that says that the wages of sin "yes even one sin" is death. (the 2nd death -- since by contrast the gift of God is eternal life).

The one in Luke 12:46-48 where Christ informs us that the "one who knew his masters will and yet did deeds worthy of flogging will receive many stripes" - showing magnitude of payment due for sins is also in the context of the knowledge of the person.

The one in Is 53 telling us that Christ took the stripes of suffering "FOR US to whom the Stroke was DUE".

Interesting Idea. If we were at a point in time where we had not yet read the Bible and were sort of supposing to ourselves what it "might mean" if we found certain statements in the bible - that would probably go farther.

But having a Bible as we all do - the real question is "what does the Bible actually say" as opposed to "suppose we found x and y in the Bible that would mean...".

Jude points out that Sodom and Gomorrah undergo the "punishment of eternal fire" and in Genesis God says he is going have the wicked state of those cities confirmed before visting them with all-destroying judgment.

8 “ How can I give you up, Ephraim?
How can I hand you over, Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I set you like Zeboiim?
My heart churns within Me;
My sympathy is stirred.

17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ 18 And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods.(Deut. 31:17, 18)

(W)hen men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. (GC 36)

God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire....

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. (DA 764)

God does not present this supernatural act of God as though "man burns himself in fire and brimstone" or as if man measures out the exact amount of torment he owed according to the law - then supernaturally enables his life to remain vital in the lake of fire so as to suffer the amount of torment and suffering owed.

But after the Fall, Satan bade his angels make a special effort to inculcate the belief in man's natural immortality; and having induced the people to receive this error, they were to lead them on to conclude that the sinner would live in eternal misery. Now the prince of darkness, working through his agents, represents God as a revengeful tyrant, declaring that He plunges into hell all those who do not please Him, and causes them ever to feel His wrath; and that while they suffer unutterable anguish and writhe in the eternal flames, their Creator looks down upon them with satisfaction.

Thus the archfiend clothes with his own attributes the Creator and Benefactor of mankind. Cruelty is satanic. God is love; and all that He created was pure, holy, and lovely, until sin was brought in by the first great rebel. Satan himself is the enemy who tempts man to sin, and then destroys him if he can; and when he has made sure of his victim, then he exults in the ruin he has wrought. (GC 534)

Given that all the wicked are already dead

when God decides to initiate this act of judgment and then of the lake of fire -- it is difficult to suppose that "if God had not raised them to life and then cast them into the lake of fire they would all have gotten along fine forever" unless we are talking about the "dust that they were found to be" at the end of the 1000 years. Certainly it is true that the dust was "getting along just fine with it's fellow dust" in which case I would agree - that the various piles of dust actually were perfectly at peace with one another and would naturally have remained in that state forever. (but for the fact that God raises them all back to life to judge them and then to cast them into the lake of fire.)

But the fact that they already lead lives of sin and suffering sickness and death prior to the GWT - already shows "sin having effect" and that effect was already tempered by the mercy of God in their lifetimes such that he poured out the "rain on the just and the unjust".

Interesting Idea. If we were at a point in time where we had not yet read the Bible and were sort of supposing to ourselves what it "might mean" if we found certain statements in the bible - that would probably go farther.

But having a Bible as we all do - the real question is "what does the Bible actually say" as opposed to "suppose we found x and y in the Bible that would mean...".


Here we have God giving HIS input on the topic -



from post -

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108797#Post108797

I have no idea what this means.

Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work."(The Review and Herald, September 17, 1901)