To which I responded -- that I would really like to see the post or link where those statements from Ellen White were shown to clearly disprove the doctrine of penal substition (substitutionary atoning sacrifice).

in Christ,

Bob

I have to admit - I find that point to be illusive.

How can you have a topic about whether the Bible clearly identifies something if you do not define what the something is.

I can say "does the Bible clearly say why kinds reproduce only after the same kind" and then point to the striped pole experiment of Jacob. But without some kind of definition for what the thing is -- it is hard to say if my answer is valid or not. You must define the terms to solve the problem.

in Christ,

Bob

can you show me where it is ever written that the "law" is not always a transcript of Gods character.

we do understand the law to be the 10 commandments, dont we? and the 10 commandmensts are love, are they not?

That is true - as Gal 3 points out the law provides/enables/secures no salvation at all because it is of the form of rule + penalty, not in the form of rule+forgiveness.

If the Law Had been written in a rule+forgiveness manner - Christ died needlessly (as Paul also points out in Gal 3).

in Christ,

Bob

I doubt I can find a quote that says the law is not always a transcript of God's character. And, yes, the law commands us to be loving like God. Nevertheless, it is also a fact that the law, unlike God, cannot pardon or save sinners. It can only condone or condemn. Only God can pardon and save.

Thank you for sharing, Bob, but my question was aimed at a different answer. Again, are you saying you've heard of Christians who disagree that the fourth commandment commanded the Jews to observe the seventh-day Sabbath on Saturday? I'm not asking this question because I disagree with what you posted above, I very much agree with you, however, I haven't met a Christian yet who doesn't believe the Jews (including Jesus) observed Saturday in obedience to the 4th commandment.

Exactly. This is my point, namely, that the Bible does not record Jesus clearly explaining why He had to die.


I'm waiting for him to clarify his point.


God cleared up long years of debate in the way He clearly revealed the truth about it through the SOP.


Okay.

Yes - there are those who claim we can not know the days of the week not only from Creation but also from Sinai to today.

Even today you find re-invention of the 4th commandment as "one day in seven" and when you ask them about "THE Seventh-day" they argue that creation week is not literal so no day was even possible - it was an arbitrary selection by the Hebrews at sinai... etc etc.

There are even Christians that claim that we do not know which day was the Sabbath of Christ's day - - never mind the Sabbath of Sinai.



I assure you they exist.

in Christ,

Bob

You didn't say this. You said, "Jesus did not clearly explain to His disciples why He had to die." He could have explained things to them that weren't recorded in Scripture.

At any rate, you're already said a couple of times that Christ didn't explain why He had to die, which I think is an amazing thing for someone to think, but not as amazing as thinking that it's not explained anywhere in Scripture.



What debate and disagreement are you thinking of?

Anyway, to extend your logic, we'd have to conclude that nothing is clearly explained in Scripture, since there is nary a tenant that one can hold that different groups will disagree about. Here are some examples:

1.Was Jesus Christ God?
2.Is the Godhead comprised of three persons?
3.Should we keep the Sunday?
4.Is there a heavenly sanctuary?
5.How is one justified?
6.When one dies, what happens?
7.What happens during the millenium?
8.How long are the wicked punished in hell?
9.What law is Paul speaking of in Galatians?
10.Is it OK to eat pork?

I arbitrarily chose ten items, but one could extend this list to include hundreds of things which are debated from Scripture. So to apply your logic would be to assert that the Bible teaches virtually nothing clearly, since virtually any point you can make from Scripture has been the subject of debate and disagreement.



The long years of debate and disagreement continue to this day, even on this very forum. So apparently she was no clearer than Scripture. We're debating the meaning of Christ's death in her writings. We're debating the punishment of the wicked. We're debating the human nature which Christ took. We're debating the Trinity. We're debating Christ's divinity. We're debating what being born again means, what it means to be converted, what justification by faith is; the list goes on and on and on.

So if you're going to use as criteria whether or not something is debated is disagreed upon, then we'd have to conclude the SOP is not clear on these points either.

But let's back off a second, and get back to some questions I was asking earlier, which haven't been addressed. For the sake of argument, let's assume you're correct, and God clearly explained things through Ellen White, but not in Scripture. (By the way, this explains your heavy reliance upon her, since you see her as clearer than Scripture, which is something I had wondered about) This would mean that:

1.Until EGW came along, nobody understand why Christ had to die (unless they got lucky and guessed right, or some uninspired person explained why)

2.Even today, non-SDA's don't understand why Christ had to die, not having access to EGW's writings.

These points follow from your idea that only EGW clearly explained why Christ had to die, don't they?

Bob, thank you for saying so, but please post a quote or two or an online link. Since I've never met or heard of anyone who believes time is so messed up we cannot identify the day of the week Jesus kept as the Sabbath day - naturally you can imagine my curiosity.