I'm hoping we can thoroughly study the truth concerning conversion, rebirth, and moral perfection. There are basically two opposing schools of thought:

1. We are born again with our defective traits of character. During the process of conversion, after we are converted and born again, we gradually, under the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit, outgrow and overcome our moral imperfections, in light of the cross. We also, so long as we are connected to Christ, grow in grace and mature morally in the fruits of the Spirit. Eventually our old man habits of sin are crucified.

2. During the process of conversion, before we are converted and born again, we gradually, under the convicting influence of the Holy Spirit, confess our moral imperfections, in light of the cross. Eventually our old man habits of sin are crucified, and we are born again without our defective traits of character. And then, so long as we are connected to Christ, we grow in grace and mature morally in the fruits of the Spirit.

What is the truth? What does the Bible say?

For some time now I have hoped and prayed that we would study this subject thoroughly. In the past, when we have studied it, the discussion ended before any clear conclusions were drawn. I believe this topic is more important than any other. The differences between the two opposing views, outlined above, are more than mere symantics. One or the other is gravely wrong and should be exposed, while the other should be widely advocated. What is the truth?

The following passages help to define and describe conversion, rebirth and moral perfection. What do they mean to you? Which view do they support?

Matthew
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John
5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

John
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

2 Corinthians
5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Philippians
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Philippians
4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

2 Peter
1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

If we are to go ahead with another topic of this nature, then we need to do it step-by-step and not move on until common ground/agreement has been established.

So let us begin by first determining what our common ground is on this topic.

Common Ground

1. Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death to make atonement available and to make rebirth possible.

2. Jesus left "us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth." 1 Peter 2:21, 22.

3. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15.

4. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:5, 6.

5. "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." Romans 6:6, 7.

6. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ . . . For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 1:6 and 2:13.

7. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13.

8. "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." Galatians 5:16.

9. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9.

10. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1, 2.

Mike Lowe posted a Common Ground post.

Does everybody agree, or does anybody disagree, with what Mike posted in that post?

If nobody responds either way, then I will assume that everybody agrees with what Mike posted there.

Only a fool would not agree with strings of Bible quotes: it is the addendums and conclusions drawn from them that are in question.

Daryl Silence to Mike's issuing in yet another form of this topic should not be considered as a vote. Many do not wish to dance to this tune any longer after 4 years of lengthy discussion.

Addendums and Conclusions

1. Jesus lived and died the perfect life and death to make atonement available and to make rebirth possible.

The life and death of Jesus gives God the legal right to pardon our confessed and forsaken sins, and it gives Him the right to offer us salvation, full and free.

2. Jesus left "us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth." 1 Peter 2:21, 22.

The sinless life of Jesus is our example, our expectation, and our experience.

3. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Hebrews 4:15.

Although Jesus was tempted in every way we are, He never sinned. So it may be with us. Committing a known sin is optional, not automatic.

4. "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:5, 6.

When we are born again, we are born of the Spirit. Jesus was also born of the Spirit. The new man is not a modification of the old man. We are born again altogether new creatures in Christ. See 2 Cor 5:17.

5. "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin." Romans 6:6, 7.

If our old man habits of sin are dead and buried, we are free from sin. We are no longer the slaves of sin. Henceforth, we are free to reproduce the righteousness of Christ.

6. "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ . . . For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 1:6 and 2:13.

Our ability to obey God, and to live in harmony with His will and way, is made possible by the indwelling Spirit of God.

7. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." 1 Corinthians 10:13.

God will not allow us to be tempted above His ability to empower us to resist unto His honor and glory. Consequently, there is no excuse for commiting a known sin.

8. "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." Galatians 5:16.

If we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We have ceased from sin. See 1 Peter 4:1, 2.

9. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9.

If we have experienced the miracle of rebirth, and if we are connected to Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin.

10. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:1, 2.

When we are free from sin, we are free to sin. But, in order to commit a known sin, we must first disconnect ourselves from Jesus, and then all we can do is sin. But the gift of repentance empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, and it gives God the legal right to forgive us and to restore the relationship our sin severed.

In light of common ground, based on Scripture, are we born again with or without our defective traits of character, our former habits of sin?

[ October 02, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Mike Lowe ]

Do we gradually outgrow and overcome our moral imperfections, our defective traits of character, after we are born again?

Or, do we gradually confess them and crucify them, during the process of conversion, before we are born again?

When do we actually crucify our old man habits of sin? Before or after we are born again?

Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.