Couldn't agee with you more, Tom E.!
Glad you are a plain speaker.
For me the latter scenes of Christ's life show utter lack of self-defense, ego, or concern for what others said or did to His "dignity". Even when Peter heard the cock's crow at his denial, Christ did not say "See, Peter? See what you've done to Me?"

Ellen White never wrote one rebuttal to any of her Sunday-keeping detractors. Why?

Tom, the idea that we gradually overcome a known sin by sinning less and less intensely until we are no longer tempted sounds reasonable, but is it biblical? Where in the Bible or the SOP is such an idea described? Where does it say we commit known sins even while we are abiding in Christ? Where does it say only the 144,000 are capable of living without sinning?

I have posted several scripture passages that seem to suggest quite the opposite. I have been unable to find where God says, Go, and taper off sinning. In Christ we do not and cannot commit a known sin; apart from Christ we cannot not sin. We are either all of His and free of sin, or we are none of His and full of sin. There doesn't seem to be any other way.

Romans
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Galatians
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

2 Peter
1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

MH 180
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}

HP 56
Christ has provided means whereby our whole life may be an unbroken communion with Himself; but the sense of Christ's abiding presence can come only through living faith. . . . {HP 56.5}

Ikan, it's one thing to disagree with the ideas I've been sharing, as always you are entitled to your own opinion, but it would be nice if you could back up your objections with inspired quotes. Please feel free to share the truth. Thank you.

I guess i just post to thin air.

Charlene, here's what I posted right after your post:

quote:

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According to the quotes Charlene shared, we are born again with inherent righteousness and true holiness. As we grow in grace and mature morally in the fruits of the Spirit, the righteousness of Christ is revealed from faith to faith, from glory to glory, like an unfolding plant reveals its inherent perfection day after day until it blooms in all its glory.

---

Tom and Charlene are doing the quoting of proofs just fine, Mike. "He who has an ear, let him hear"

Just a few verses from 1 John show, to my mind, that Mike's way of thinking here is not sound.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." -- 1 John 1:9

Who is the "we" John is describing here?

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;..." -- 1 John 1:1

Whoever "we" is, John himself is a part of that group, since "we" saw Christ with their own eyes, handled Him with their own hands.

So -- John is a part of the group that has a possibility of sinning, as mentioned in verse 9. Nowhere is there the first hint that whoever sins, first has to disconnect themselves completely from Christ. Was John disconnected completely from Christ if and when he sinned? There's nothing about such a scenario in the Bible. No, he asked for forgiveness and received it. We're not "cast off" every time we sin. If so, it would mean the Holy Spirit moves into our bodies ('connected'), then out of us before we sin ('disconnected'). Then back in when we confess and repent. I don't think that's the way it is.

In the ancient Hebrew economy, was it true that when an Israelite sinned, he had automatically left the camp beforehand, thereby disconnecting himself from God? No. He sinned where he was, then brought an animal to be sacrificed as a substitute for him. Sure, there could come a point where an Israelite who continued in sin could be cut off from the body of believers and from God's salvation, the same as it is with Christians today. But it didn't happen every time a sin was committed. If it didn't happen in the type, it doesn't happen in the antitype either.

Now, I believe wholeheartedly that it's possible to cease from sinning, completely and totally. In the here and now, not just when the 144,000 appear, or after the close of probation. Ellen White wrote, "There are Enochs in this our day."
{COL 332.1}

But I don't agree with Mike's salvation methodology as stated here and in many other places throughout MSDAOL.

Regarding the 144,000, it is my belief that there experience will be unique. This is because the live at a time where there will be no Mediator. This requires victory over all sin, not just known sin. I also believe this cleansing from sin is corporate in nature. That is, it is not a case of 144,000 individual believers each overcoming sin on their own, but a corporate experience experienced by all who open their hearts to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which will be a revelation of God's love, His character, by way of clearer light and understanding with respect to the Gospel. (wow, long sentence!)

Regarding our own experience, I think if we focus on sin we are doomed to failure. The process I described above I believe is in line with reality, and certainly Scripture will be in agreement with reality. We are creatures of habit; bad habits take time to overcome and new habits take time to form. God understands this, as He made us. And perhaps our definition of sin is not the same as His.

There is no excuse for sin, and God will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able. I believe this, and believe that victory over sin is possible, for any believer at any time. However, that victory will come, I believe, by way of an appreciation of God's character as revealed by Jesus Christ, not by focusing on sin itself.

The way God restores us to the image of Christ is by revealing Himself to us, for it is by beholding that we become changed. If we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace, God will make us like Jesus. This should be our goal, and our emphasis, I believe.

Thanks for acknowledging the quotes. I think they apply to the subject.

My concern with this presentation by Nike is it seems to be free from battles. It seems after the new birth..."happy ever after time is here".

That is not the case. We have a sinful nature that must be put away. we fail, we fall we battle but we may always have the choice to get up and try again and choose that Jesus has the answers if we just let Him. He havn't let Jesus so we trip yp, stug our toes. it is not "new Birth ' and slide into heaven. read the chapter on talents in the book 'Christ object sessons." pages 331-333 Satan does not like his folks taking jesus seriously....he has all kind of thing to divert our attention. sins need to be forsaken yes. i guess what i am saying is it doen't come at once.

There is a process.....understanding..followed by progression and then maturity. i don't see new birth and maturity in the same place i see new birth beginning the process and maturity the result. but...there is war, in between the war of self. Self does not die easy and what we think is death of the 'old man' may not be....there may still be envy in lur hearts. this is why we must die daily ...each commitment takes us farther in Christ. The propmise i hang on to is "he will finish in us what He has started" IF we cooperate with Him. Don't make it sound easy,,,there are struggles/trials/ from the unseen enemy. our victory is in Jesus we know thr road is narrow and the path is dangerous but God will make us sure footed if we take his hand.

In First John chapter one John is addressing the Gnostic idea that we are sinless spiritual beings who do not need to repent because we have never sinned. But the Bible says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Rom 3:23. John says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

1 John
1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We cannot use this passage to prove that born again believers continue to commit known sins while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. God forbid. John, and other NT authors (including Sister White), plainly teach that we do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, like the vine and the branch. The only place, in the entire Bible, where post-conversion sinning is mentioned is the following scripture:

1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Please notice that this promise does not say "when any man sin", no, it clearly says, "if any man sin." But even this promise is prefaced with the following promise, "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not." John is clear - In Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. Period! But he also warns:

1 John
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Please notice what John says about sinning. "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him . . . Whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him . . . He that committeth sin is of the devil . . . Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God."

These insights in no way agree with the idea that born again believers can continue to commit known sins while abiding in Christ. In fact, John says exactly the opposite. "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . . Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous . . . Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

John takes these things very seriously. He did not mince his words. "He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him." 1 John 2:10. Again, his warnings cut like a two-edged sword.

1 John
2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].
2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
2:26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

John writes, "If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." Anyone who denies this truth denies the Father and the Son. "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." Again, John is straight forward. "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."