That's not the argument at all. You're not reading what she actually said.



This is continuing from the sentence which says the death of the wicked is not due to an arbitrary, or manufactured, act of God. It is clear that she is saying that the wicked die as a result of their own choice. She couldn't say this any more clearly. She repeated it over and over again.

There's absolutely nothing here about God's being capricious. It's all about the death being the result of their own choice, the result of sin. This couldn't be clearer. She repeated it ten times in a row!




I'd like to give this text a lot more attention, but haven't had time. I've not forgotten it though. Here's one thought:



You'll recall we discussed this concept, that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, is what slays the wicked. Just like DA 764 (and GC 543 to mention another off the top of my head), the destruction of the wicked is due to their own choice, as opposed to something God does to them. This is evident in that the same thing that gives life to the righteous is what destroys the wicked. This is a profound and important concept. It gets to the guts of retribution and destruction, which has to do with evil being overcome by good.

God does not destroy the wicked by changing His character, and all of a sudden becoming harsh, cruel and vindictive. He's the same loving Father He always has been. He can't be otherwise, because this is how He is. He is kind, patient, loving, generous, humble, forgiving, compassionate 24/7, all the time, for ever and ever. He is the LORD; He changes not.

Well if God is so king and loving, how is it that the wicked are destroyed? Because they so warp their character that God's mere presence is a consuming fire to them. The light of the glory of God, which is the revelation of His character, slays them, while giving life to the righteous.

Now here's an interesting thing. Let's take a look at the sentence immediately preceding the one quoted above:



How about that! The understanding Ellen White communicated regarding this text is that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.

Now these principles are right in Scripture. If one understands that God's wrath is His giving those who reject Him up, it's easy to see how retribution and destruction take place.

But not the words of God. Nor the rhetoric of God. Nor the logic of God. Nor the point of view of God. 1SM 21. Please consider what she wrote regarding revelation and inspiration. You're presenting a POV that seems identical to fundamentalism. As she puts it, the Bible writers were God's penmen, not His pen.

Holy men of God were inspired by the Holy Spirit. There is a mysterious blending of the human and the divine. The clearest, fullest revelation of God comes from Jesus Christ. This is what the Scripture teaches. Indeed, the entire purpose of the Scriptures is the revelation of Christ. His self-sacrificing love, His cross, is the crimson thread that appears on every page, and ties the Scriptures together.



The universe is restored.

Did not learn it in Seminary - -and have not taken the time to exegete texts quoted here -- I merely quoted them and let the text stand as is.

As for where I picked up the skill set -- it was in the school of hard knocks - discussing and defending Adventist doctrine with non-SDA pastors and seminary students.

Funny the things you pick up along life's pathway.

in Christ,

Bob

A "distinction without a difference" as it turns out - as even Ellen White calls the Bible the very VOICE OF GOD.

It is therefore very appropriate when dealing with the WORD of God -- and in fact the very "voice of God to the soul" -- to say "And God Said" when you reference the very voice of God.




in Christ,

Bob

So here are some "details" regarding something that is NOT the 2nd death -- just the first death suffered by the wicked at the 2nd coming.

======================================
Great Controversy 656

The mark of deliverance has been set upon those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done." Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel's vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." Says the prophet: "They began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {GC 656.2}
"The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants
657
of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." Isaiah 26:21. "And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor." Zechariah 14:12, 13. In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. "And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33. {GC 656.3}

At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth--consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. 658
{GC 657.2}
[/quote]

================================================

So now to notice some "details".

1. What "does the text say" that God's death angel is "doing"?? What command is that angel given?
2. What does the phrase "unmingled wrath" refer to IN the text?
3. What is the context for the phrase "Punish the inhabitants"??
4. What is the "plague" that "The Lord uses to smite all the people"?
5. How many are said to be the "slain of the Lord" in the quoted text above?

True but getting to that point includes the horrific events that take place at both the 2nd coming and the Great White Throne judgment of Rev 20 followed by the Lake Fire as God described it in his messages through both John and Ellen White -- and as we saw posted here.

in Christ,

Bob

I am amazed that you present that as if it is helping your argument!

1. Christ's presence did not "slay Judas" or the Pharisees. So something very NOT Christ like is going on at the 2nd coming (comparing the incarnate Christ on earth to the King coming in Power and Glory to visit the wrath of God on the wicked "dealing out retribution")
2. It is still true today that what is food to one animal is poison to humans. There is no "winking" that takes place if you force feed a human poison by saying "YES but it was FOOD for this other animal! Isn't that wonderful!". It is something of a nonsequitter.
3. Christ's "brightness" is not in the shape of a death angel as it turns out, nor even a plague.
4. Neither can it be argued that the saints enjoy God's "unmingled wrath" but the wicked find it to be terminal. Rather something is actually going on there - the saints being transformed so as to survive it -- the wicked not so much. Beyond that - the death angel is told NOT to slay the ones with the Seal of God on them.

in Christ,

Bob

Actually - my point was that Christ could easily be seen face to face by Judas, by the Pharisees etc - but when speakinig to Moses Christ says that Moses COULD NOT see Him as He really was and yet LIVE.

That means that God is fully aware of what it takes to NOT KILL humans. He is fully aware of the transformation that is needed in the nature and being of the saints (glorification) prior to their being ABLE to see Him as He IS without "killing them".

This statement that says in essence "since only the saints have their bodies transformed-glorified at the 2nd coming -- then only THEY survive. So then maybe sorta kinda this is not God actually doing something to kill the wicked" - never gets off the ground when we look at the details. I don't argue that you make this up - I fully recognize that this idea has been floating around -- just not sure why anybody took it seriously. I am just thankful it does not show up in any SDA official arguments because non-SDAs would finally have a gigantic target for which there would be no defense at all.

When we look at what Ellen White says about the PLAGUE used to destroy the wicked AND what she says the "death angel" is commanded to do - along WITH the brightness of God destroying the wicked -- it is IMPOSSIBLE to argue a "God didn't do it" case for the 2nd coming -- much less for the lake of fire.

It simply does not hold up.

Illustration: you see small animals all over your driveway yet you pull the car into your drive way anway and squash them. Your family friends and neighbors will be very unhappy about that and there is no "yes but all the small animals that chose not to be in the driveway were safe -- I was just pulling the car in like I always do knowing it would only kill the ones that were in the drive way... so not me doing anything to kill them".

Anyway - you get the idea. It is illogical to argue that "I did this knowing it would kill you but not kill everyone" argument as if "so that is not actually doing something to kill - because it did not also kill the righteous"

So now to notice some "details".

1. What "does the text say" that God's death angel is "doing"?? What command is that angel given?
2. What does the phrase "unmingled wrath" refer to IN the text?
3. What is the context for the phrase "Punish the inhabitants"??
4. What is the "plague" that "The Lord uses to smite all the people"?
5. How many are said to be the "slain of the Lord" in the quoted text above?


in Christ,

Bob

I'm sorry you don't see the significance of it. I'll try to explain it more clearly.



Divinity was shrouded in Christ so that God's glory could be seen. God's purpose in sending Christ was to reveal His glory for the purpose of saving man. Now if God were to destroy man in revealing His glory, that wouldn't be contrary to the whole purpose.

However, there were moments when something similar happened to what will happen at the Second Coming. Consider the cleansing of the temple. What happened there when divinity flashed through humanity?





When the glory of God is revealed to man, without an understand of the goodness, character, and love of God, without a living experiencing of His mercy and grace, one cannot stand such a revelation, because the revelation of God means a simultaneous revelation of self. The beauty of His character illuminates the ugliness of our own. The only way we can stand such revelation is to be bathed by His grace. As those who have rejected Him have refused such protection, to put it in these terms, they cannot abide His presence. This principle is explained in the statement I've been quoting from regarding 2 Thess.



First we have the quotation of 2 Thess. 2:8. Then the explanation, which is that the light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. But what is the light of the glory of God? Is it some physical phenomenon? Or something else?

Well, it could hardly be a primarily physical phenomenon because it gives life to the righteous. If we consider what "glory" is, that can provide a clue.



Ok, so we know what God's glory is. It's His character. So the light of the glory of God would be the light, or revelation, of His character. Are we on the right track? Indeed, as the following sentence makes clear:

"Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God." Now let's consider the remaining sentences:



Notice, in particular, the last sentence. This explains why the guilty in heart fled Christ's presence in the temple, the same reaction as those who will cry for rocks to fall upon them at Christ's second coming. They would rather have a mountain fall on them than to see the face of the One who loved them and gave Himself for them.

Only the pure in heart can abide in His presence. This principle is key to understanding 2 Thess. 2:8.



I like your analogy of food/poison. This works to show the point I've been making very well.

The food/poison is the revelation of God's character. For the righteous it is life, but for the wicked it is death. Now there's no reason why this food should cause death. It's good, wholesome food. But the wicked have to perverted themselves that that which should be wholesome, life-giving food to them is poison, echoes of the following:





That's right. It's in the shape of revelation of character.



But this is missing the point. It's not that the saints survive it, but they receive life from it. The "light of the glory of God" which gives life to the righteous "will slay the wicked."