You didn't say this. You said, "Jesus did not clearly explain to His disciples why He had to die." He could have explained things to them that weren't recorded in Scripture.

At any rate, you're already said a couple of times that Christ didn't explain why He had to die, which I think is an amazing thing for someone to think, but not as amazing as thinking that it's not explained anywhere in Scripture.

I arbitrarily chose ten items, but one could extend this list to include hundreds of things which are debated from Scripture. So to apply your logic would be to assert that the Bible teaches virtually nothing clearly, since virtually any point you can make from Scripture has been the subject of debate and disagreement.

1. Until EGW came along, nobody understand why Christ had to die (unless they got lucky and guessed right, or some uninspired person explained why)

2. Even today, non-SDA's don't understand why Christ had to die, not having access to EGW's writings.

Tom, do you agree with me that I didn't say, "Christ didn't explain why He had to die", that instead I said, "Jesus did not clearly explain to His disciples why He had to die"? Or, do you even see a difference between your statement and mine?

T:I arbitrarily chose ten items, but one could extend this list to include hundreds of things which are debated from Scripture. So to apply your logic would be to assert that the Bible teaches virtually nothing clearly, since virtually any point you can make from Scripture has been the subject of debate and disagreement.

M:After saying all that - you still haven't posted a quote which clearly explains why Jesus had to die.

T:1. Until EGW came along, nobody understand why Christ had to die (unless they got lucky and guessed right, or some uninspired person explained why)

2. Even today, non-SDA's don't understand why Christ had to die, not having access to EGW's writings.

M:1. Obviously it was oral tradition.

2. Same as above.

Tom points out -
1.Was Jesus Christ God?
2.Is the Godhead comprised of three persons?
3.Should we keep the Sunday?
4.Is there a heavenly sanctuary?
5.How is one justified?
6.When one dies, what happens?
7.What happens during the millenium?
8.How long are the wicked punished in hell?
9.What law is Paul speaking of in Galatians?
10.Is it OK to eat pork?

I arbitrarily chose ten items, but one could extend this list to include hundreds of things which are debated from Scripture. So to apply your logic would be to assert that the Bible teaches virtually nothing clearly,

M: Tom, do you agree with me that I didn't say, "Christ didn't explain why He had to die", that instead I said, "Jesus did not clearly explain to His disciples why He had to die"? Or, do you even see a difference between your statement and mine?

T: Yes, I see the difference, which is why I corrected it to something plausible. I don't agree with the plausible statement either, but what you wrote, that Jesus Christ didn't explain it to His disciples, is something you couldn't know, of course, since you don't know what He said to them apart from what was recorded in Scripture.

T:I arbitrarily chose ten items, but one could extend this list to include hundreds of things which are debated from Scripture. So to apply your logic would be to assert that the Bible teaches virtually nothing clearly, since virtually any point you can make from Scripture has been the subject of debate and disagreement.

M:After saying all that - you still haven't posted a quote which clearly explains why Jesus had to die.

T: I wasn't attempting to do so. I was explaining why your logic was wrong. You said that because what Jesus said was debated it couldn't have been clear. This is incorrect, and this is what I was addressing.

T:1. Until EGW came along, nobody understand why Christ had to die (unless they got lucky and guessed right, or some uninspired person explained why)

2. Even today, non-SDA's don't understand why Christ had to die, not having access to EGW's writings.

M:1. Obviously it was oral tradition.

2. Same as above.

T: That was obviously oral tradition? Oral tradition from whom? (must have been from someone unclear or uninspired)

1. Does SCRIPTURE tell us why Jesus had to die.
2. Do the GOSPELS ALONE report an exhaustive explanation on that topic "in red letters".
3. Does the exitence of dispute about any given Bible topic prove that the topic disputed is lacking in some degree of clarity in scripture?
4. Does God's Law really demand the death (2nd death lake of fire) of the sinner as the payment/debt owed for sin?

1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

The Son of God, pure and unsullied, bore the penalty of transgression, and received the stroke of death that brought deliverance to the race.--Review and Herald, Jan. 20, 1903. {CM 76.2}

For the sins of those who are redeemed by the blood of Christ will at last be rolled back upon the originator of sin, and he must bear their punishment, while those who do not accept salvation through Jesus will suffer the penalty of their own sins. {EW 178.1}

Justice demands that sin be not merely pardoned, but the death penalty must be executed. God, in the gift of His only-begotten Son, met both these requirements. By dying in man's stead, Christ exhausted the penalty and provided a pardon. {AG 139.2}

Abel grasped the great principles of redemption. He saw himself a sinner, and he saw sin and its penalty, death, standing between his soul and communion with God. He brought the slain victim, the sacrificed life, thus acknowledging the claims of the law that had been transgressed. Through the shed blood he looked to the future sacrifice, Christ dying on the cross of Calvary; and trusting in the atonement that was there to be made, he had the witness that he was righteous, and his offering accepted. {CC 24.4}

The question, "If a man die, shall he live again?" has been answered. By bearing the penalty of sin, by going down into the grave, Christ has brightened the tomb for all who die in faith. God in human form has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. In dying, Christ secured eternal life for all who believe in Him. In dying, He condemned the originator of sin and disloyalty to suffer the penalty of sin--eternal death. {CH 333.1}

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

However I don't think that we would need to conclude that anything that is not all in one text or all in one chapter -- would need oral tradition to figure out.

Do you agree that your idea implies that non-SDA's don't understand why Christ had to die? You're suggesting they got it from some oral tradition, but that oral tradition would have to be based on something, and if that something is Scripture, that doesn't help because you've already said Scripture does not clearly explain it.

T: So we would be led to conclude that before Ellen White, the world was in the dark as to why Christ had to die.

T: Do you feel this way about other doctrines as well? For example, justification by faith. One could hardly understand justification by faith without understanding why Jesus Christ had to die, wouldn't you agree? So the same conclusions regarding the death of Christ would apply to justification by faith. Therefore justification by faith is not clearly explained in Scripture. This seems to follow directly from your idea that Scripture does not clearly explain why Christ had to die.

T: As to quoting references, I've already quoted references many, many times. For example, 1 Pet. 3:18, which tells us that Christ died "to bring us to God." John 3:16 is also a clear explanation. In this verse, Christ tells us that He would die so that whoever believed in Him would not perish but have everlasting life.

Let's take the subject of why Jesus had to die and see how it plays out. Where in the Bible, using the "line upon line" method, is it clearly explained why Jesus had to die? And, then, where does it specifically say Jesus had to die to 1) influence and motivate sinners to love and obey God, and 2) die in our place because law and justice require death in consequence of sin?