What's being presented is all over the Spirit of Prophecy, so if that's "official," then, alas, non-SDA's have the gigantic target you are speaking of.

During the 1888 message we see elements of it as well, particularly by Waggoner.



The following statements deal with these questions:













It is Satan's work to destroy. What's his name in Revelation, where you've been quoting from? "The Destroyer." God protects even the impenitent from him as long as possible, but eventually the time comes when God can no longer continue to do so, which is the outpouring of His wrath.

1. "Unmingled wrath" does not give the saints life and there is nothing in Ellen White's statements to suggest such a thing.
2. God did not offer Moses "unmingled wrath" or even "a plague" nor a "death angel".
3. God's point on Sinai was that IF a saint -- such a Moses is not transformed like the saints will be at the moment of the 2nd coming -- then even HE would die.

There is no "nice face" that can be put on "the Plague" that is mentioned or the "death angel" or the "unmingled wrath".


So now to notice some "details" in that Lake of Fire document that Ellen White wrote .

http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108942#Post108942

1. What "does the text say" that God's death angel is "doing"?? What command is that angel given?
2. What does the phrase "unmingled wrath" refer to IN the text?
3. What is the context for the phrase "Punish the inhabitants"??
4. What is the "plague" that "The Lord uses to smite all the people"?
5. How many are said to be the "slain of the Lord" in the quoted text above?

in Christ,

Bob

?? This statement says nothing about "unmingled wrath." Unmingled wrath is treated in other statements I cited, such as RH 9/17/01 and others cited, but not this one.



This is cryptic. So what?



Where did God say to Moses that he would die if he weren't transformed like the saints at the moment of the second coming?



Nice face? What does that mean?

Anyway, the principles are plain in the quotes cited above. Satan causes the plagues when God permits.





Please cite whatever quote you wish to comment on, so your reader doesn't have to go back hunting for things. Most of what you cited is simply texts from Scripture. Ellen White has explained the meaning of these texts in places like 14 MR 3, ChS 51, DA 764, GC 35-36, and others. God permits Satan to do his work of destruction.

I've asked you this several times, but to the best of my recollection you've not responded. What makes you think God is capable of doing the things you're accusing Him of? Specifically why do you think He is capable of torturing people?

As I've pointed out, in understanding a description of a vision like that which you've cited, it's imperative that we compare it with other texts. Especially good are texts like GC chapter 1 and DA 764, where she speaks of the principles involved.

Once we see that the inevitable result of sin is death, the rest is pretty easy to see. Also understanding the principles that God is like Jesus Christ, who fully revealed His character, is helpful.

Sorry about that. But I have had people complain when the same unnanswered material is posted every 1 or two pages -- so was trying to avoid that complaint as well.

Here is the text where I am looking for response to the details.


So here are some "details" regarding something that is NOT the 2nd death -- just the first death suffered by the wicked at the 2nd coming.

======================================
Great Controversy 656

The mark of deliverance has been set upon those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done." Now the angel of death goes forth, represented in Ezekiel's vision by the men with the slaughtering weapons, to whom the command is given: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." Says the prophet: "They began at the ancient men which were before the house." Ezekiel 9:1-6. The work of destruction begins among those who have professed to be the spiritual guardians of the people. The false watchmen are the first to fall. There are none to pity or to spare. Men, women, maidens, and little children perish together. {GC 656.2}
"The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants
657
of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." Isaiah 26:21. "And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold everyone on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor." Zechariah 14:12, 13. In the mad strife of their own fierce passions, and by the awful outpouring of God's unmingled wrath, fall the wicked inhabitants of the earth--priests, rulers, and people, rich and poor, high and low. "And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried." Jeremiah 25:33. {GC 656.3}

At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth--consumed with the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His glory. 658
{GC 657.2}
[/quote]

================================================

So now to notice some "details".

1. What "does the text say" that God's death angel is "doing"?? What command is that angel given?
2. What does the phrase "unmingled wrath" refer to IN the text?
3. What is the context for the phrase "Punish the inhabitants"??
4. What is the "plague" that "The Lord uses to smite all the people"?
5. How many are said to be the "slain of the Lord" in the quoted text above?

Indeed -- so that is "good thing".

But in this case it is Ellen White applying scripture to the 2nd coming and affirming it in literal terms.



There is no "permits Satan" in the "unmingled wrath of God" statements.

There is no possibility of sweeping away disconfirming details with generalized statements in this case.



In the case of the previous post and the details I am asking the reader to respond to -- I am not quoting me but Ellen White and her use of scripture so it is not me "Accusing God" I am simply asking the reader to deal with the details in the text.

in Christ,

Bob

The "unmingled wrath" example I gave above is not about the torture of the 2nd death in the lake of fire -- it is simply the "death angel" and the "plague" and the brightness of His Coming (which would have killed Moses according to God in the book of Exodus).

This is the point where Paul speaks to the Lord "revealed in flaming fire dealing out retribution" to those who do not obey the Gospel (2Thess 1) as already noted.

But if you want to discuss the "torture" where the wicked are "tormented with fire and brimstone" Rev 14:10-11

Then it is in the next post.

in Christ,

Bob

Questions for the reader.

1. What does the phrase “His fury upon all their armies” refer too in the text above”?
2. What does the phrase “Suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires” refer to – in the text above?
3. Is it the same as the phrase above “The full penalty of the LAW has been visited ”??
4. When the text speaks of those who “suffer for many days” does this mean all or just some?
5. When the text says that by comparison “he is still to live and suffer on” after all others have perished… is that fair?
6. In the text the argument is made that in this way “the demands of justice have been met” is that really true as you see it?
7. In the text above when it is said that ”punishment is far greater” for Satan than for others suffering there – are ALL punished??

So the thing God said would kill Moses was to see God as He is - His brightness.

But as we see in GC 657 the Rev 19 2nd coming event is not only the brightness that God had to protect Moses from -- it is also the "unmingled wrath" of God and the "Death angel" and the "plague" mentioned there in GC 657 doing the work of killing the wicked in a manner that Paul describes in 2Thess 1 as "God revealed in flaming fire..dealing out retribution".

So again - Moses was not asking "God please reveal yourself to me in flaming fire and deal out retribution to me in your unmingled wrath with the death Angle and the Plague of God doing their work on me".

Rather Moses just said "Show Me your glory" and God said He could not - for in a purely human and fallen condition Moses could not live and see God. I.e. God is very aware of what it takes to kill humans in their fallen form.

Apparently that includes -

1. His unmingled wrath
2. His death angel killing all who do not have the seal of God
3. His Plagues
4. And the brightness of His coming
5. AND as Ellen White points out - the war and bloodshed man against man.

ALL of it combines -- no "either or" logic will work in that case.

in Christ,

Bob

The other statements I've presented explain this, Bob. In addition to asking, "What does the text say?" is asking "What did the author mean?" By considering what she said elsewhere on the subject, we can see what she meant.

She said:

"A power from beneath is working to bring about the last great scenes in the drama ... The cause will be followed by the effect."

"This earth has almost reached the place where God will permit the destroyer to work his will upon it....When this substitution becomes universal, God will reveal Himself." (This is 2 Thess. 2:8, explained by the DA 108 quote, "the light of the glory of God, etc.".

"We are standing on the threshold of the crisis of the ages. In quick succession the judgments of God will follow one another,--fire, and flood, and earthquake, with war and bloodshed. We are not to be surprised at this time by events both great and decisive; for the angel of mercy cannot remain much longer to shelter the impenitent." (This speaks of the angel of mercy not being able to shelter the impenitent from the "judgments of God." But how do these judgments come about?


"I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection....after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath."

It couldn't be more clear that Satan is the one who causes these things, and God, in mercy, protects against Satan's destructive acts of destruction as long as possible. (Note, these are all cited in the post above on the top of this page, which gives the full context).

This interpretation fits with what has been revealed about God's character. For example, "Satan is the destroyer. The Lord is the restorer. (CT 239)" Even in Revelation, Satan is referred to as "the destroyer."

A good chapter to study in this regard is the first chapter of "The Great Controversy," which goes into these principles in detail. Here's a snippet:



To your questions, the text says that angel is slaying, and these statements explain what this means. In inspiration, God is often presented as doing that which He permits. For example, Scripture says that God slayed Saul, but Saul committed suicide. God permitted it to happen. The same thing is happening here, as the other comments she wrote on the subject make clear.

The phrase "unmingled wrath" in this text means the same thing is means throughout Scripture, which is that God gives up the impenitent to the results of their choice, as per DA 764, and other texts, such as those cited above make clear.

The context for "punish the inhabitants" is just what was explained in these other comments. God punishes as explained above, and here: "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full."

Regarding the plague that the Lord sent, this explained by the teal quote above.

The SOP enjoins us to do the same thing with her writings as we would do with Scripture, which is to consider what she has written elsewhere on a subject when considering a given text. By doing so we can readily see that she has explained the final judgment, and the scenes before Christ's second coming, in a very positive way, which makes God look good, and not like a butcher or a sadist.

You're quoting her words, but giving them a meaning she never intended, which is evident by considering what she wrote elsewhere on the subject, as she enjoined us to do.

You've still not answered my question. You're interpreting the texts you presented which have God acting in a very harsh, sever, and cruel manner, actually using His supernatural power to torture people. Jesus Christ said if you, being evil, know how to give good gifts, how much more will your heavenly Father do so. Using this same theme one can ask, if you, being evil, would not torture you enemy by dousing him in gasoline and burning him, taking extraordinary measures to keep him alive so that fire doesn't kill him, in order to allow his excruciating pain to continue, how much more would the infinitely good God not do so?

What would cause you to view God in such a manner, as being capable of doing the things you are suggesting? Responding by saying that you are repeating what the texts say is insufficient. Many people read these texts without coming to the conclusions you are drawing. Indeed, within Adventism, the idea that God will use His supernatural powers to keep people alive so that He can burn them with literal fire to make them pay for their sins is a decidedly minority position among published works. Indeed, I don't know of *any* published work which ascribes to this idea.