Frankly, the only people i know who seem to be perfect are those I really havn't known for very long. I'm 63 years old now and don't know one solitary person at all, young or old, who is actually perfect...that is, who does not demonstrate some fault or other. I've been out in the world of employment for 50 years and in the SDA church for 60 years and havn't yet seen a faultless person, unless they are a quadraplaigic with Alzheimers, or something like that. So, did I miss something? I would love to meet a perfect man. Tell me where I can find one so I can move next door to him and maybe be his best friend, or maybe even his wife some day!!!

Restin, you're too funny. I love it. Thank you for being so frank. But think about it. The most perfect person in the world, Jesus, was accused of being demon possessed. Peter, James and Paul, who were very Christlike, were put to death as evil-doers.

Peter described newborn believers this way: "Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." 1 Peter 2:1-3. Concerning someone who has laid aside all evil speakings, James wrote: "If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." James 3:2.

That's the good news. When we experience the miracle of rebirth, when our old man is dead and buried, when we are connected to Christ, when we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man - we do not and cannot commit a known sin. It's that simple.

However, as born again believers, we are always free to disconnect ourselves from Jesus, our only source of success, and resurrect our old man and revert to our sinful ways. But if we do back slide and commit a known sin, the Holy Spirit immediately begins offering us the free gift of repentance, which empowers us to confess and forsake our sin, plus, it gives God the legal right to pardon us, and to restore the relationship our sin severed.

The promises of perfection only apply to us while we are connected to Jesus, while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Otherwise, when we resurrect our old man and revert to our sinful ways, there are other promises that apply, namely, 1 John 2:1, 2. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Does that make better sense?

A couple of questions. First of all, what does this mean?

"The life and death of Jesus gives God the legal right to pardon our confessed and forsaken sins, and it gives Him the right to offer us salvation, full and free."

How does the life and death of Jesus give God the legal right to pardon? Did God not have the legal right to pardon sin apart from Christ's death? If not, how does Christ's death make is "legal". In what sense would it have been "illegal" if God had chosen to pardon sin apart from Christ's death? Also I suppose I should ask what "legally pardon" means.

Here's how I see things. Sin is rebellion. Legally pardoning rebellion does not fix the problem if the rebellion is not removed from the heart of the rebel. In order to remove rebellion from our rebel hearts, God instituted the plan of salvation, including the life and death of Christ. Through a revelation of Himself in Christ Jesus, God is able to restore us to His image, if we do not resist His grace.

Regarding perfection, EGW says the following in commenting on Matt. 5:48 "God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace." (MB 76)

I think this puts a good perspective on things. God will make us like Jesus (i.e. perfect us) if we don't resist His grace.

Tom, are you inferring doubts based on the Broader View? Just curious. If so, we should discuss that topic on a different thread. Just exactly why the shed blood of Jesus was necessary and required is a wonderful study.

Also, I like what you posted about God making us perfect. But when? When are we perfect in Christ? And, in what sense? forensically (imputed), intrinsically (imparted), or both?

I think a study on why the shedding of Christ's blood was necessary would indeed be a wonderful study. I certainly don't have all the answers, as this is a profound study that will be go on for all eternity, but I'd be happy to share the thoughts I have and to try to arrive at a better understanding myself.

I'll share a couple of thoughts already as they tie in with your perfection questions. I think that Christ's work from a forensic standpoint was corporate in nature. From an individual standpoint I think that God restores us to His image in a way which is in harmony with His character, or, to put it another way, in harmony with the principles of His government. This is to a large extant what I think the legal statements mean when they refer to the individual.

EGW tells us that the decision not to go to heaven is voluntary with the wicked and that God accepts their choice. Legally God has made it possible for them to go to heaven, but if they don't want to be there, He won't force them to.

Regarding perfection, I believe the whole world was justified in Christ. That justification is made effective in the life of the believer when he is justified by faith. That is, when a person responds to the love of God shining from the cross, He is led in repentence for his sins and he is tranformed; the law is written in his heart, and every thought is brought captive to Christ. He has peace with God, not because God has changed, but because he has. He views God in a new way, as a Savior, as a Friend, as Someone he wants to worship, serve, and obey. Not because he has to in order to gain heaven or avoid hell, but because he admires God's character as it is revealed in Christ, and he wants to.

Regarding perfection, if perfection is defined as sanctification, then inspiration makes it clear that that is the work of a lifetime.

======

Removed quote of previous post. - Daryl

[ October 03, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Daryl Fawcett ]

Beautifully put, Tom. Thank you. It did my heart good this morning to read your post. God is good. As I see it, we are born again justified and sanctified. In Christ, we are morally perfect. Our old man traits of character are dead and buried. We are new creatures.

However, we are not born again morally mature. We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. And like Jesus, who grew in grace and matured morally and mentally from childhood to manhood, so too we begin perfect and we become perfect as we grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Sanctification is indeed the work of a lifetime, but it is the result of lifelong obedience, not, as some seem to think (not you), the result of a lifetime of sinning and repenting less and less and until we eventually cease sinning.

So long as our old man is dead and buried, so long as we are connected to Christ, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, the growth we experience in Christ involves becoming more and more righteous, not less and less sinful. We advance from one stage of perfection to another, from grace to grace, from faith to faith, and from glory to glory. Not from greater sins to lesser sins until we cease to sin.

The righteousness of God is "revealed" from glory to glory as we live by faith empowered by grace. It is revealed, not received. In other words, when we are born again, and receive the implanted sinless mind of the new man, it (the mind of the new man) comes complete with all the righteous attributes of God, and all the fruits of the Spirit. The fulness of God's righteousness is inherent in the mind of the new man, and is revealed, not accumulated, more perfectly as we grow in grace and mature morally in the fruits of the Spirit.

John
1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

2 Corinthians
3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

What do you mean "connected to Christ"? You wrote earlier that before we can sin, we have to disconnect ourselves from Christ. What does that mean? What about a reactive sin, like thinking or saying a bad word when someone cuts you off in traffic?

Christ's Object Lessons---- First the Blade, Then the Ear-----PG- 63

"The parable of the seed reveals that God is at work in nature. The seed has in itself a germinating principle, a principle that God Himself has implanted; yet if left to itself
the seed would have no power to spring up. Man has his part to act in promoting the growth of the grain. He must prepare and enrich the soil and cast in the seed. He must till the fields. But there is a point beyond which he can accomplish nothing. No strength or wisdom of man
can bring forth from the seed the living plant. Let man put forth his efforts to the utmost limit, he must still depend upon One who has connected the sowing and the reaping by wonderful links of His own omnipotent power.

God's Amazing Grace--- The Divine Order of Growth
-PG- 283

"The germination of the seed represents the beginning of spiritual life, and the development of the plant is a beautiful figure of Christian growth. As in nature, so in grace; there can
be no life without growth. The plant must either grow or die. As its growth is silent and imperceptible, but continuous, so is the development of the Christian life. At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's purpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement. Sanctification is
the work of a lifetime. As our opportunities multiply, our experience will enlarge, and our knowledge increase. We shall become strong to bear responsibility, and our maturity will be in
proportion to our privileges."

New birth is just the beginning...Justification.
Our walk/progress with Christ is the purification process which leads to maturity/sanctification. The two go hand in hand, one is our belief and the other is growing by faith into the full stature of Christ. the choices are both active for we need the new birth daily, the growth daily to reack the full corn in the ear.;

"there is first a beginning in our understanding, then a progression then the completion."

By "connected to Christ" I mean abiding in Him, like the vine and the branch, like the cable and the trolley car.

John
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

1 John
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

2 John
1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Regarding unintentional, spontaneous outbursts of sin, such as cursing when you hit your finger with a hammer, God can even empower us to respond in a Christlike manner under such circumstances. There is no situation God cannot empower us to be Christlike.

According to the quotes Charlene shared, we are born again with inherent righteousness and true holiness. As we grow in grace and mature morally in the fruits of the Spirit, the righteousness of Christ is revealed from faith to faith, from glory to glory, like an unfolding plant reveals its inherent perfection day after day until it blooms in all its glory.

By the way, the undeveloped, unrevealed portion of a plant does not symbolize unknown defective traits of character. Sometimes people quote the growing plant illustration to mean as we grow and develop as Christians we gradually become less and less sinful. But the plant symbolizes how the righteousness of Christ is revealed more and more unto to the perfect day.

As we grow in grace, the righteousness inherent in the mind of the new man unfolds like a plant advancing from one stage of perfection to another stage of perfection. We begin as candlelight, and every day we shine brighter and brighter becoming more and more like Jesus. But His righteousness outshines the sun, thus eternity isn't long enough to stop growing and maturing.

ML 250
"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. {ML 250.4}

HP 186
It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity. {HP 186.6}

"Regarding unintentional, spontaneous outbursts of sin, such as cursing when you hit your finger with a hammer, God can even empower us to respond in a Christlike manner under such circumstances. There is no situation God cannot empower us to be Christlike."

Certainly this is true, but my question has to do with how you are defining things. Certainly thinking or saying a bad word is a known sin, but I don't think one must disconnect oneself from Christ to commit this sin.

I would suggest that the way the process works is more or less like this:
1) At first, bad words come out, and one some time later asks for forgiveness.
2) The time it takes to ask for forgiveness takes less and less time.
3) One gets to the point that one doesn't say the bad words, but one thinks them, and asks for forgiveness.
4) The time it takes to ask for forgivenss shrinks.
5) One doesn't even think the bad words anymore.

There are a great many examples similar to this one I could give.

James tells us that for one to know to do right and not do it is sin. So known sin would incorporate any right thing that one knows that one refrains from doing. I would also submit that it is not necessary to "disconnect" oneself from Jesus to do this.

Also the Bible tells us that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. So any known action not done from faith is sin.

The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that the science of how to cultivate faith is the most important science there is. Or something like that. This is a science that is learned.

To not be misunderstood, I agree completely that sin can be overcome, and indeed the 144,000 will completely overcome sin. However, I do not think your characterization of how the process works is correct.

When I asked what it meant to be "connected" to Christ, you said "abide", but that's just another metaphor. It begs the question, what does it mean to abide in Christ?

Here's how I look at things. God will take anyone to heaven who would be comfortable there. He will make us all like Christ if we do not interpose a perverse will and frustrate His grace. I think this is a more positive way of looking at the process.

God is constantly seeking to reveal Himself to us. By beholding, we become changed. This is how He restores us to His image. This is why the Spirit of Prophesy suggests we spend a thoughtful hour contemplating the life of Christ, especially the latter scenes. As a result of this, we become sanctified; we become more like Christ.

What do you think?