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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10904
10/05/04 01:41 AM
10/05/04 01:41 AM
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OP
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Charlene, I agree with you that abiding in Christ is a battle and march, if need be we must sweat blood resisting sin, self and Satan. But nowhere in the Bible or the SOP does it say we gradually outgrow our defective traits of character after we are born again.
1 John
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So long as we are connected to Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. John is not implying that born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. Not at all. We are always free to resurrect our old man and revert to our old sinful ways. But while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot commit a known sin.
Like Tom Ewall wrote - our focus must be on Jesus; not sin, not righteousness. When tempted with unholy thoughts and feelings we must labor, agonize, wrestle and strive to stay connected to Jesus. Fighting the good fight of faith means doing whatever it takes to keep our eyes on Jesus, which is a metaphor that means hanging out with Jesus, as with a friend. He must be as real to us as our earthly friends. If He isn't as real to us as our earthly friends, then we must pray until it becomes a reality.
FW 48
We are to do all that we can do on our part to fight the good fight of faith. We are to wrestle, to labor, to strive, to agonize to enter in at the strait gate. We are to set the Lord ever before us. With clean hands, with pure hearts, we are to seek to honor God in all our ways. Help has been provided for us in Him who is mighty to save. The spirit of truth and light will quicken and renew us by its mysterious workings; for all our spiritual improvement comes from God, not from ourselves. The true worker will have divine power to aid him, but the idler will not be sustained by the Spirit of God. {FW 48.1}
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10905
10/05/04 01:41 PM
10/05/04 01:41 PM
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OP
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The idea that we can commit a known sin while abiding in Christ, while walking in the Spirit, denies the truth. The Bible says:
Romans
6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
2 Corinthians
7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Galatians
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
1 John
1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1 John
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John
4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 John
5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
God says, "He that committeth sin is of the devil." Man says, "He that committeth sin is of the Lord." Both cannot be correct. Either God is telling the truth and man is liar, or man is telling the truth and God is a liar. "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." 1 John 3:10.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10906
10/06/04 02:06 AM
10/06/04 02:06 AM
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OP
SDA
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Tom, John, Ikan and Charlene:
You folks all agree that a born again believer can, and does, commit known sins while abiding in Christ, while walking in the Spirit, but the inspired passages shared above absolutely refute this idea. Please, show me in the Bible or the SOP where your view is correct. Thank you.
You also seem to believe that sanctification is a process of becoming less and less sinful by gradually outgrowing our defective traits of character, little by little. But where does it say we become more like Jesus by slowly becoming less like Satan?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10907
10/05/04 04:16 PM
10/05/04 04:16 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"You folks all agree that a born again believer can, and does, commit known sins while abiding in Christ."
I didn't say this. You first said that before a person could commit a known sin, they had to "disconnect" themselves from Jesus. I asked you what "connected" meant. You said it meant "abide." I asked you what "abide" meant. I couldn't find an answer to that.
If you define "abide" is some way which implies you can't sin without stopping to abide, then I'd have to agree with your conclusion, as it would be a tautology.
I don't wish to be put in the position of defending sin. I wrote there is no excuse for sin, that God will deliver us from any temptation. I don't agree with your perspective, but I do believe it's possible for a Christian to live without sinning. I don't believe one's salvation depends on living without sinning.
I believe God will take anyone to heaven who would be happy there. He prepares us for heaven by revealing Himself to us; this is how He restores us to His image. By beholding we become changed. So if we wish to progress in the process of becoming more Christ-like, we should discover the truth of what God is really like, which is that He is like Jesus.
It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him. They behold the Saviour's matchless love, revealed throughout His pilgrimage on earth, from the manger of Bethlehem to Calvary's cross, and the sight of Him attracts, it softens and subdues the soul. Love awakens in the heart of the beholders. (DA 480)
This should be our focus.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10908
10/05/04 07:21 PM
10/05/04 07:21 PM
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Posts: 22,256
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Amen, Tom. I completely agree with you. We must focus on Jesus; not sin, not righteousness. It is the love of God that softens and subdues our hearts and empowers us to "Go, and sin no more." Focusing on Jesus is what I mean when I use the metaphor of being connected to Him, abiding in Him. Hanging out with Jesus, as with a best friend, is being connected to Him. The Holy Spirit sits solo and supreme upon the throne of our soul temple. Here are the comments that led me to believe you guys believe born again believers can and do commit known sins while connected to Jesus. quote:
Tom wrote: Certainly thinking or saying a bad word is a known sin, but I don't think one must disconnect oneself from Christ to commit this sin.
quote:
In response to this, Ikan wrote: Couldn't agree with you more, Tom E.!
quote:
John wrote: Nowhere is there the first hint that whoever sins, first has to disconnect themselves completely from Christ.
quote:
Charlene wrote: He havn't let Jesus so we trip yp, stug our toes. it is not "new Birth ' and slide into heaven.
In your last post, Tom, you made it very clear that you believe born again believers cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus. But you also seem to make a distinction between being connected to Christ and abiding in Him. What's the difference?
And then there's the other question. Where in the Bible or the SOP is it taught that we become more like Jesus by becoming less like Satan? The gradual process you outlined seems to suggest we progress from greater sins to lesser sins until we cease to sin. But I have been unable to verify this idea.
quote:
Tom wrote:
I would suggest that the way the process works is more or less like this:
1) At first, bad words come out, and one some time later asks for forgiveness.
2) The time it takes to ask for forgiveness takes less and less time.
3) One gets to the point that one doesn't say the bad words, but one thinks them, and asks for forgiveness.
4) The time it takes to ask for forgivenss shrinks.
5) One doesn't even think the bad words anymore.
Also, can you please elaborate on this comment:
quote:
Tom wrote: I don't believe one's salvation depends on living without sinning.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10909
10/06/04 12:06 AM
10/06/04 12:06 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom wrote: Certainly thinking or saying a bad word is a known sin, but I don't think one must disconnect oneself from Christ to commit this sin.
The point I was making here was thinking a bad word could be understood as a "known sin". I don't know if that's what you had in mind by "known sin" or not. I also wasn't sure what you meant by "connected to Jesus". I should have been more clear. I should have said that "thinking a bad word can be thought of as a known sin". I don't know if that's what you had in mind or not. At any rate, I don't think a Christian has to "disconnect" himself from Christ in order to think a bad word.
Sin involves choice. It involves rebellion. I feel comforatable saying that a Christian will not rebel against God. I think this is in harmony with John's teaching.
The Greek in 1 John 3:9 is in the present continuous, which can be translated "Whosoever is born of God does not go on sinning" or "continue sinning" or "persist in sinning". I don't have an SDA Bible Commentary. I'd be interested to know what it says.
quote:
In your last post, Tom, you made it very clear that you believe born again believers cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus.
How'd I do this?
quote:
But you also seem to make a distinction between being connected to Christ and abiding in Him. What's the difference?
I was asking what you meant by these terms. I wasn't intending to make any distinction. I haven't thought about what "connected" means, other than I don't think a Christian has to "disconnect" to think a bad word.
I think the whole idea of thinking of staying connected is the wrong perspective. I have written several times what I think the right perspective is, and will repeat it again.
I think God will take anyone to heaven who would be comfortable there. I think His goodness is leading us to repentence, and if we do not resist He will save us. If we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace, He will make us like Christ. The way that He does this is by revealing Himself to us.
Saying that our salvation does not depend on our living without sinning means that we do not get to heaven by living sinless lives. We get to heaven by not resisting the grace of God. That grace, if not resisted, will perfect us.
It is not the hope of reward, or the fear of punish, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him, but they behold the beauty of His character.
What is beautiful about Christ's character?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10910
10/06/04 12:10 AM
10/06/04 12:10 AM
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I'm supposing Mike is including himself as one of those converted persons who is now incapable of sinning or having any serious faults of any kind, thereafter. So, Mike, if I took your wife aside and asked her, would she agree that you don't do anything wrong ever, or have any very bad faults or foibles? Forgive nosey here, but I have a hard time putting your theory into real life situations. You can sock me in the eye now, if you feel like it. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10911
10/06/04 01:08 AM
10/06/04 01:08 AM
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OP
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Posts: 22,256
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Tom, again, I agree that it is the love of God, the beauty of Christ's character, that motivates us to serve and obey Him. The thing that gave me the impression you disagree with the following statement . . . quote:
You folks all agree that a born again believer can, and does, commit known sins while abiding in Christ.
. . . was the following response you posted:
quote:
I didn't say this . . . . If you define "abide" is some way which implies you can't sin without stopping to abide, then I'd have to agree with your conclusion, as it would be a tautology.
Did I misunderstand you?
Also, I believe all temptations begin as unholy thoughts and feelings. We must not automatically assume we are guilty of them. We do not become guilty of them until we cherish them or act upon them either in thought, word or deed.
Is that what you meant when you wrote:
quote:
Certainly thinking or saying a bad word is a known sin, but I don't think one must disconnect oneself from Christ to commit this sin.
Did you mean to include speaking bad words? Is it possible to say bad things while abiding in Christ?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10912
10/06/04 01:53 AM
10/06/04 01:53 AM
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OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Restin, don't worry, the thought of smacking you never even entered my mind. But you probably knew that. Also, I never said born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. Here's what I posted to Charlene (October 04, 2004 11:41 PM): quote:
So long as we are connected to Christ, we do not and cannot commit a known sin. John is not implying that born again believers are incapable of committing a known sin. Not at all. We are always free to resurrect our old man and revert to our old sinful ways. But while we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man we do not and cannot commit a known sin.
Do I ever resurrect my old man? Yes, sometimes I do. But doing so does not mean the promises of God are untrue. They only apply while we are abiding in Jesus. Our occasional misdeeds and mistakes are not the standard by which we determine whether or not God's promises are true. Jesus' life and example is the standard. His life proves they are true.
Here's what my wife thinks about it:
Hi Restin, I'm Mike's wife, Barbara. Let me first say that I do not claim to have the knowledge of scripture that the people posting on this site have; in fact, I am what you call a "new babe" in Christ. But I do know in my heart, and agree fully with Mike, that when we are connected to Jesus we cannot sin. I have to say that Mike is one of the most "connected" people I have ever met. I've known him for three years and been married to him for one year (on Oct. 12!), and it has been a very rare occasion when he has fallen into sin, and then it has been a sin of impatience. His consistency of character and love of Christ are two of the very reasons I married him. I think he is a living example of the concept that we are born again morally perfect and we do not sin as long as we are connected to Jesus.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10913
10/06/04 01:05 PM
10/06/04 01:05 PM
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OP
SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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And then there's the other question. Where in the Bible or the SOP is it taught that we become more like Jesus by becoming less like Satan? The gradual process you outlined (quoted below) seems to suggest we progress from greater sins to lesser sins until we cease to sin. But I have been unable to verify this idea. quote:
Tom wrote:
I would suggest that the way the process works is more or less like this:
1) At first, bad words come out, and one some time later asks for forgiveness.
2) The time it takes to ask for forgiveness takes less and less time.
3) One gets to the point that one doesn't say the bad words, but one thinks them, and asks for forgiveness.
4) The time it takes to ask for forgivenss shrinks.
5) One doesn't even think the bad words anymore.
Also, in what way does the following meaning and interpretation of 1 John 3:9 differ than the KJV?
quote:
The Greek in 1 John 3:9 is in the present continuous, which can be translated "Whosoever is born of God does not go on sinning" or "continue sinning" or "persist in sinning".
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