Here's what you wrote: "But much of what Jesus taught has to do with the inner man, things like don't store your treasure on earth, but in heaven, don't worry for today but trust your heavenly Father will take care of you, love your enemies, things like that."

I know of unconverted New Agers and Buddhists and Hindus who understand these principles and practice them in their own unique way. My point is these things are not impossible for unconverted people to grasp intellectually. But, as you say, they cannot experience them spiritually in the sense Jesus meant it.


I agree "that the problem is not grasping things intellectually". I also agree that there is huge difference between knowing it in the head and experiencing it in the heart.


Obviously, then, the disciples were not converted in the sense they were obeying everything Jesus commanded. Yes, they were on the path that would, if they remained true and faithful to light they had already embraced, lead them into all the light Jesus commanded.

This is why I make a distinction between rebirth and conversion. I believe rebirth occurs the moment believers crucify their old man habits of sin and receive the implanted mind of the new man, which comes complete with all the righteous fruits and attributes of God's spirit and character. In some cases, though, people experience rebirth before they obey everything Jesus commanded.

In such cases they have not completed the process of converting from the ways of the world to the ways of God. People complete this process the moment they obey everything Jesus commanded. Then they spend the rest of their time in flesh abiding in Jesus maintaining their conversion while maturing daily in the fruits of the Spirit.

How do you explain this distinction?

Yes, there's more to it than just grasping things intellectually. Also it could be that some of the people you mentioned were converted.



Would you also agree that one would need to be converted to experience it in the heart?



This isn't what converted means. Converted means to be born again, to be transformed, to be a child of God, forgiven, justified (all of these things are synonyms).



So you think a person can be converted without being born again? And I suppose converted and not go to heaven? (since no one goes to heaven who is not born again, and not everyone who is converted is born again).



I believe rebirth occurs when one believes in Christ.



I think they complete the process the moment they believe in Christ, meaning repent and accept Him as their personal Savior.



I don't, because I see no distinction (I'm assuming you mean the distinction between being converted and being born again).

I can you assure they are not converted to Christ. Nevertheless, they are, so as long as you do not cross them in the wrong way, kind and loving and compassionate people.


Not necessarily. But they do need to experience rebirth to experience it in the heart as well as in the head. It takes both.


Then please suggest a word that describes the difference between those who obey everything Jesus commanded and those who are on the road to it.


I believe it is the other way around. People experience rebirth while in the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded.


Elsewhere you said they experience rebirth when they embrace Jesus as their Savior AND crucify certain old man habits of sin.


Again, please suggest a word that describes the difference I articulated above.

I thought this was an interesting comment. It seems to be similar to how you perceive God's character. That is, God is kind and loving and compassionate, as long as you don't cross Him in the wrong way.



I don't know of any way of answering this, other than saying those who are on the road to it are on the road to it, and those who are doing it are doing it. Sorry about not being able to do better than that. It seems like asking the difference between someone who is on the road to Miami and someone who is there. One person is there and the other is on the way.

I suppose you could say one person's character is more like Christ's than the other.



So you believe people can be born again without being converted? What about being justified by faith? Can one be justified by faith without being born again or being converted? What about accepting Christ as one's personal savior. Does this happen at the same time one is justified by faith?

My way of thinking is a whole lot simpler. Justified by faith, accepting Christ, born again, converted are all synonyms.



Nope, never said that. The Bible teaches that justification is by faith, not faith and works. It is true that justifying faith will be manifest by works, but we should be clear that justification is by faith, not faith and works. We could rightly say that justification is by faith *which* works.



I think our fundamental difference here is over what happens, not over what words to use.

Regarding a word that describes the difference you articulated above, "confused" comes to mind.

(that's a joke I can't think of any one word to use).

Tom, you are dead wrong about how I perceive God. But I’m sure you believe it with all your heart. Perhaps you need to believe it to feel good about the divergent views you hold regarding God’s “strange acts”.


Unbelievers become believers through a process of converting from what they were into what they are. Within this process several important steps are taken, namely, the Spirit woos them to behold Jesus, they respond and take an interest in spiritual things, they study the truth as it is in Jesus, they are convicted to confess their sins, they embrace Jesus as their personal Savior, they repent, they crucify their old man habits of sin, they experience rebirth, they are baptized, they join the church, they build up the body of Christ with their gifts and talents, and they seek and save the lost.

Christians are at different degrees within the process of converting from the world to Christ. Where they are within the process of conversion is directly related to the light and truth they are living up to. Jesus is the standard. His example and experience is the goal. People complete the process of conversion when they are living in perfect harmony with the example and experience of Jesus, when they are living in perfect harmony with everything He commanded and demonstrated.

Since most people are born again before they learn to live in perfect harmony with Jesus’ example and experience, before they learn to live in perfect harmony with everything He commanded and demonstrated, it is obvious to me they experience rebirth before they complete the process of conversion, before they are completely converted. The key words here, therefore, are “born-again” and “converted”, which is why I suggested them as terms to differentiate between the two different kinds of Christians I described above.

Do you agree, based on my explanation above, that “born-again” describes one group and “converted” describes the other one?


I agree with you that the words you listed can be used synonymously, which should answer the other questions. However, as I explained above we need to have words that describe the two different groups.


I’m not talking about justification by faith versus sanctification by faith as it relates to their salvation status. Instead, I’m simply talking about rebirth. What is the difference before and after rebirth? Are they born again ignorantly practicing all of their sinful habits, some of them, or none of them? I am pretty positive you have in the past said they leave off at least some of the more obvious sinful habits when they experience rebirth. Did I misunderstand you?


Since you believe people complete the process of converting from the ways of the world to the ways of God the instant they accept Jesus as their personal Savior, it appears you also believe they are living in perfect harmony with Jesus’ example and experience, living in perfect harmony with everything He commanded and demonstrated. If so, I can see why you see no need for words to describe the difference I described above. You disagree such a difference exists. In reality, I realize you believe there is a difference, but for some reason you seem unwilling to discuss it right now.

In the past I have asked you to post inspired passages which you believe describe believers who are living in perfect harmony with Jesus’ example and experience, who are living in perfect harmony with everything He commanded and demonstrated - and in response to this request you posted COL 69. Do you apply this passage to the people you described above in the following manner, "I think they complete the process the moment they believe in Christ, meaning repent and accept Him as their personal Savior"? If not, please explain why and what makes the difference.

Well I sure hope so!



I more feel sorry for you. My views are less divergent than yours, by the way, not that that matters, but it is a bit odd for you to bring this up, given certain ideas you have. You've said quite a number of things which I've never heard of anyone else saying. To mention a recent one, the idea that Scripture does not clearly explain the meaning of Christ's death. I'm not taking issue with you're being a free thinker at all; I just think it's odd for you to bring this up, as it's like the pot calling the kettle black.

At any rate, perceiving you to hold certain views about God doesn't impact my feelings in regards to the views I hold. I was mentioning on another thread how Ty Gibson has been helpful in shaping my thought. What makes me feel good, if you want to put it that way, is what the views I've been presenting say about God. However, I know they fall far short of the true beauty of God's character.



Most? How would it be possible for a person who is not born again to live in perfect harmony with Jesus' example? Have you thought this through?

Jesus Christ said you must be born again. No one will go to heaven who is not born again. Now do you think it is possible for a person to live in perfectly harmony with Jesus' example and not go to heaven? If not, then it must follow that such a person is born again.



The way you are using "converted" here is very unusual. You're using it the way most people would use the word "sanctified." Given how you've defined "born again" in the past, I would have thought that was also someone who is sanctified, or is perfected in character. So it's not clear to me how you are using the phrase "born again." What is a born again person lacking? (as you use the phrase "born again.")

Just to restate what I've said, I believe converted, born again, justified, forgiven, accepting Christ as one's personal Savior, are all synonymous. I think this would be quite easy to show from the SOP btw.



If the words are all used synonymously, there's only one group.



Justification by faith *is* rebirth.



Being forgiven, having a transformed heart.



This is down the list regarding important questions to ask, IMO. The most important question is, has a person accepted Christ? Paul said, "for me to live is Christ" (or something similar). This is the true mark of a born again Christ. As Paul put it, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ" etc.



I've consistently said that these things are a *sign* of the righteousness that a person has when the accept Christ. It's not a condition. If the Holy Spirit brings to mind certain sins, they must be repented of, but we have to many sins for the Holy Spirit to bring all of them to mind. There wouldn't be enough time, and it would be overwhelming. So the Holy Spirit brings to mind certain sins that would stand in the way of a person's accepting Christ.



??? Really, MM, I wish you quote things I've written instead of making these off the wall statements. Please!!



Here you've misquoted your own words! This isn't what you asked. You asked for a passage which points out that it is possible for a believer to live in perfect harmony etc.



If you think a bit, the answer is obvious. She wrote that when Christ's character is reproduced in His people, He will come and claim them as His own. To become "His people," one must be born again (as this is how one becomes a child of God), so if those who are born again (His people) were perfectly reproducing His character, or had been doing so at any time in the past, Christ would already have come.

Tom, I'm not sure why you are dodging the point of my question. You wrote, "I think they complete the process the moment they believe in Christ, meaning repent and accept Him as their personal Savior." You know good and well what I mean by completing the process of conversion. You know I'm using it describe believers who are obeying everything Jesus commanded. You also know I believe most believers experience rebirth prior to completing the process of conversion.

Tom, what do you mean by - "I think they complete the process the moment they believe in Christ, meaning repent and accept Him as their personal Savior." In what way have they completed the process of converting from the world to obeying everything Jesus commanded?

Regarding #108702, I don't know what you're referring to. I wrote quite a long detailed post. It's rather odd that you would respond to that with the idea that I dodged a question! Anyway, it's too long a post to hunt through it all to find what you're talking about, so you'll need to provide a context if you want a response.

Regarding #108887, what I mean is that believing in Christ is completing the process of conversion. To put it another way, this is what conversion means: to believe in Christ.

Tom, thank you for answering my questions.