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Why Adventis Doctrine is in fact Fundamentalist #108949
02/25/09 12:23 PM
02/25/09 12:23 PM
B
Bobryan  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
In a recent discussion on this board - someone mentioned a little surprise at the very fundamentalist position we find in Adventist Doctrine.

(I suppose it is like the old "Catholic or Christian" argument where now Catholics are sorta waking up to the fact that they indeed need to be arguing that they ARE Christian instead of the "I am not Christian I am Catholic" arguments they used to make in the 50's and 60's).

Adventisms teaches a fundamentalist view of the Bible.

1. The Bible is literally true.
2. Literal Creation week (and life on earth < 10,000 years, long age lifespans preflood).
3. Literal hell fire burning literal people in the Rev 20 "second death" lake of fire.
4. Literal millennium - 1000 years of Rev 20
5. Literal bodily first resurrection - literal rapture of the church in 1Thess 4
6. Literal resurrection of Christ
7. Literal virgin birth of Christ
8. Literal substitutionary atoning death of Christ - paying our "certificate of debt"NASB
9. Literal second Coming
10. The Bible is "the Word of God" (in fact it is the "VOICE of God speaking to the soul")
11. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to the Father -- the ONLY door of salvation - the ONLY savior from sin.
12. The Catholic church is the woman of Rev 17 and the first beast of Rev 13 that wars against the saints.


Fundamentalists get crucified out in mainstream press for holding to those very views.

But if you dont' get out much - you may think that because Adventists believe in

1. the Investigative Judgment of Dan 7,
2. the Ten Commandments of Ex 20,
3. the Sabbath as "literally true and binding"
4. the continuation of 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts even to the point that Ellen White was a true prophet
5. Soul Sleep: People do not go to heaven or hell immediately at death.
6. Rejection of the man made tradition regarding OSAS

-- that this makes us something "less than" fundamentalist. It does not.

At worst it makes us a distinct version of fundamentalist at best it makes us MORE fundamentalist than most since we take soul sleep to be literally true and hold to the continued validity of 1Cor 12.

Hint: When our non-SDA liberal critics make their complaints against "fundamentalist Christians" it is always in the form of the first list above being attacked.

Thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

Last edited by Bobryan; 02/25/09 12:35 PM.
Re: Why Adventis Doctrine is in fact Fundamentalist [Re: Bobryan] #108975
02/25/09 08:02 PM
02/25/09 08:02 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,642
California, USA
Assuming the list is correct, it looks like Adventists are Fundamentalists. But Maxwellians will have a problem with #3.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: Why Adventis Doctrine is in fact Fundamentalist [Re: asygo] #108989
02/25/09 10:20 PM
02/25/09 10:20 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
In a recent discussion on this board - someone mentioned a little surprise at the very fundamentalist position we find in Adventist Doctrine.


If you're talking about me, that's not at all what I said. If you're referring to something else, I'd be very interested in seeing it.

Regarding Adventism and Fundamentalism, Adventists are not Fundamentalists because of how we view inspiration and revelation. The fundamentalist idea is predicated on verbal inspiration, which holds that the Bible represents the mind of God, and that the Bible writers basically took dictation, writing God's words down for Him. In contrast, Adventists believe in what is commonly described as "thought inspiration," which is a bit of a misnomer, but is, at least, quite a bit more accurate than the verbal inspiration idea.

A detailed discussion of inspiration and revelation can be found in Selected Messages Book 1.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why Adventis Doctrine is in fact Fundamentalist [Re: Tom] #108990
02/25/09 10:29 PM
02/25/09 10:29 PM
B
Bobryan  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
When I point out to my non-SDA fundamentalist friends that we view scripture as "The Word of God" and fully accept 2Pet 1:21 "men of old moved by the Holy Spirit SPOKE from GOD" so much so that Ellen White could write that the Bible is "the very VOICE OF GOD speaking to the soul" - they usually agree on that point and then want to move on to something like OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

Re: Why Adventis Doctrine is in fact Fundamentalist [Re: Tom] #108991
02/25/09 10:32 PM
02/25/09 10:32 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding this list:

Quote:
1. The Bible is literally true.
2. Literal Creation week (and life on earth < 10,000 years, long age lifespans preflood).
3. Literal hell fire burning literal people in the Rev 20 "second death" lake of fire.
4. Literal millennium - 1000 years of Rev 20
5. Literal bodily first resurrection - literal rapture of the church in 1Thess 4
6. Literal resurrection of Christ
7. Literal virgin birth of Christ
8. Literal substitutionary atoning death of Christ - paying our "certificate of debt"NASB
9. Literal second Coming
10. The Bible is "the Word of God" (in fact it is the "VOICE of God speaking to the soul")
11. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to the Father -- the ONLY door of salvation - the ONLY savior from sin.
12. The Catholic church is the woman of Rev 17 and the first beast of Rev 13 that wars against the saints.


Regarding 3, it has always been debated within Adventism whether the fire in Revelation is literal or not, even going well back into the 19th century. Kevin, who used to post here, was well familiar with the history of this. I've haven't seen him (i.e., virtually) for quite awhile.

Regarding 8, as stated, Maxwellians in general would not have a problem with this, as they believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ. It's the question of penal substitution that they would take issue with.

Regarding 11, Adventist belief on this point is different than many other denominations, which would deny that heathens can be saved. Adventists believe heathens can be saved, but there salvation would be through Christ, although they wouldn't be aware of this fact.

Regarding 3, 4, 5, and 12, of course our eschatology is different than those of other denominations. It's odd to include these eschatological points under a "Funadmentalist" heading, as the "secret rapture" theory is far and away the predominant view among Fundamentalists. It's certainly not true that Fundamentalists get taken to take by the media for "these very views," (at least, these particular ones) because they don't hold them.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why Adventis Doctrine is in fact Fundamentalist [Re: Tom] #109012
02/26/09 01:03 PM
02/26/09 01:03 PM
B
Bobryan  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
1. The reason that literal 2nd coming and literal rapture are included is because that IS a huge difference between libs and fundamentalists AND fundamentalists DO allow for pre-trib, mid-trib AND post-Trib(that would be us)... versions of the rapture as long as you have a visible 2nd coming, a literal resurrection and all of it pre-mill.

2. There is no hint at all in the 28FB that Adventists do not think the same fire that reformats the surface of the earth is what is killing the wicked OR that we do not believe that wicked are punished for their sins as the law demands in the real fire of the "lake of fire".

Hence:

Quote:


http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01998.htm


"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin.


Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
[/color]



Quote:



The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31.

They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1.

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}




Great Controversy P 486
http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01984.htm


In the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, came forth and blessed the congregation. So Christ, at the close of His work as mediator, will appear, "without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28), to bless His waiting people with eternal life. As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited" (Leviticus 16:22); so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the
486
full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. [/b]
; Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil. {GC 485.3}



Questions for the reader.

1. What does the phrase “His fury upon all their armies” refer too in the text above”?
2. What does the phrase “Suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires” refer to – in the text above?
3. Is it the same as the phrase above “The full penalty of the LAW has been visited ”??
4. When the text speaks of those who “suffer for many days” does this mean all or just some?
5. When the text says that by comparison “he is still to live and suffer on” after all others have perished… is that fair?
6. In the text the argument is made that in this way “the demands of justice have been met” is that really true as you see it?
7. In the text above when it is said that ”punishment is far greater” for Satan than for others suffering there – are ALL punished??

in Christ,

Bob

Re: Why Adventis Doctrine is in fact Fundamentalist [Re: Bobryan] #109013
02/26/09 01:07 PM
02/26/09 01:07 PM
B
Bobryan  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
28FB document -- FB#27

Quote:

27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth.

The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)



Bottom line -- the idea that the 28FB implies doubt that this --

Quote:

The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething GC 672



Is speaking about fire -- is missing from the document.

The point is that we end up with a very literal version of hell fire in Rev 20 where "real fire burns real people" in a real lake of fire such that God "destroys BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 - which is a literal and fundamentalist position on hell that goes farther than many fundamentalist non-SDAs would LIKE to go.

in Christ,

Bob

Last edited by Bobryan; 02/26/09 01:13 PM.
Re: Why Adventis Doctrine is in fact Fundamentalist [Re: Bobryan] #109017
02/26/09 02:20 PM
02/26/09 02:20 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
You're going off topic, Bob. We've got another thread discussing these things. The purpose of this topic has to do with your ideas regarding Adventistism and Fundamentalism (strange bedfellows).

I explained why Adventists are not fundamentalists, which has to do with our view of inspiration and revelation. I also explained why a number of items on your list do not belong there.

Regarding the eschatological items, if you wrote something like we believe in a literal, visible Second coming which is pre-millenium, that would be fine, but when you put specific Adventist ideas, then it doesn't fit, since Fundamentalists do not believe these things.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why Adventis Doctrine is in fact Fundamentalist [Re: Tom] #109036
02/26/09 10:37 PM
02/26/09 10:37 PM
B
Bobryan  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
One of the items in my "fundamentalist list" was the literal hell fire item - and I wanted to show that this is indeed what we see in both the 28FB and EGW when we look at those details.

Not intending to debate them here -- just note that they are included in the list for a reason.

As for Fundamentalists -- recall that there is no such thing as the North America first church of fundamentalism as if they are all one denomination. They include pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib -- but they are all pre-mill. I simply point out that we fit into the pre-mill post-trib group within that broad scope of fundamentalist.



in Christ,

Bob

Last edited by Bobryan; 02/26/09 10:39 PM.
Re: Why Adventis Doctrine is in fact Fundamentalist [Re: Bobryan] #109037
02/27/09 12:33 AM
02/27/09 12:33 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The 27th FB simply says:

Quote:
The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.


Everybody agrees with this. There's nothing in here about what you've been sharing (specifically the idea that God supernaturally keeps people alive so that they can be burned alive to pay for their sins).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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