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Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #109094
02/27/09 06:52 PM
02/27/09 06:52 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Neither the Bible nor the SOP could be more clear about it.


Sure they could. If the point of the Bible was that God will supernaturally extend the lives of the wicked so that they can be made to suffer excruciating pain, it could say so somewhere, or, more generally, present God has having the character of One who tortures.

From the SOP, she specifically argues against such an idea in a number of places, including, most pointedly, GC 536 where she expresses horror at the ideas being presented. I can only imagine her reaction if she could her the suggestions as to what she is saying in a way "that couldn't be clearer."

How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live. Yet this doctrine has been widely taught and is still embodied in many of the creeds of Christendom. Said a learned doctor of divinity: "The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever. When they see others who are of the same nature and born under the same circumstances, plunged in such misery, and they so distinguished, it will make them sensible of how happy they are." Another used these words: "While the decree of reprobation is eternally executing on the vessels of wrath, the smoke of their torment will be eternally ascending in view of the vessels of mercy, who, instead of taking the part of these miserable objects, will say, Amen, Alleluia! praise ye the Lord!"

Where, in the pages of God's word, is such teaching to be found? Will the redeemed in heaven be lost to all emotions of pity and compassion, and even to feelings of common humanity? Are these to be exchanged for the indifference of the stoic or the cruelty of the savage? No, no; such is not the teaching of the Book of God. Those who present the views expressed in the quotations given above may be learned and even honest men, but they are deluded by the sophistry of Satan. He leads them to misconstrue strong expressions of Scripture, giving to the language the coloring of bitterness and malignity which pertains to himself, but not to our Creator. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?" Ezekiel 33:11.

What would be gained to God should we admit that He delights in witnessing unceasing tortures; that He is regaled with the groans and shrieks and imprecations of the suffering creatures whom He holds in the flames of hell? Can these horrid sounds be music in the ear of Infinite Love? It is urged that the infliction of endless misery upon the wicked would show God's hatred of sin as an evil which is ruinous to the peace and order of the universe. Oh, dreadful blasphemy! As if God's hatred of sin is the reason why it is perpetuated. For, according to the teachings of these theologians, continued torture without hope of mercy maddens its wretched victims, and as they pour out their rage in curses and blasphemy, they are forever augmenting their load of guilt. God's glory is not enhanced by thus perpetuating continually increasing sin through ceaseless ages.

It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. (GC 535, 536)


Other than the duration of the suffering of the wicked, there's no difference between what you're asserting and the position she's arguing against here. (I'm asserting this not only due to a conclusion on my part, but because I asked you this specific question, and you agreed with it; i.e. that there's no difference between the views presented here -- specifically paragraphs 2 and 3 -- and what you've presented)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #109095
02/27/09 07:16 PM
02/27/09 07:16 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: teresaq
http://spiritlessons.com/documents/7_jovenes/English_7_Jovenes_Hell.htm

would this be a good picture of how you see it going down, brother bob?

Teresaq, what did Bob say that makes you wonder if his view of heaven and hell is similar to what those Colombian youth saw in vision?


the more graphic and emphatic some get on "hellfire", the destruction of the wicked, then that picture is what comes to my mind, not to mention that there seems to be some devilish glee in the idea of the wicked being tortured and tormented. i honestly cannot see how it is any different than the eternal torment belief. nor can i understand why anyone would enjoy such thoughts.......i would think the idea of anyone suffering for any reason would repel us.......if not, then i am real fearful for the individual who is not repelled by such thoughts.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #109096
02/27/09 07:37 PM
02/27/09 07:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Tom, I can count on you to compare my view of hell to the Catholic view. You are if nothing else consistent and predictable.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #109097
02/27/09 07:42 PM
02/27/09 07:42 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
the more graphic and emphatic some get on "hellfire", the destruction of the wicked, then that picture is what comes to my mind, not to mention that there seems to be some devilish glee in the idea of the wicked being tortured and tormented. i honestly cannot see how it is any different than the eternal torment belief. nor can i understand why anyone would enjoy such thoughts.......i would think the idea of anyone suffering for any reason would repel us.......if not, then i am real fearful for the individual who is not repelled by such thoughts.

Teresaq, I think I know the answer but I must ask you to verify it. Are you wondering if Bob is guilty of thinking and feeling the way you fear and expressed above?

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #109098
02/27/09 07:48 PM
02/27/09 07:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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What is the answer to the title question of this thread - Does God punish? From what I can tell both Tom and Teresaq would answer - Yes! So would Bob and I. Tom and Teresaq are convinced their view of how God punishes sinners is humane; whereas, they would characterize the view Bob and I advocate as inhumane and cruel involving force, violence, and torture.

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #109099
02/27/09 07:53 PM
02/27/09 07:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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The following inspired description of hellfire and brimstone is foundational:

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #109100
02/27/09 07:56 PM
02/27/09 07:56 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
does that cancel 109094?

or do they fit together like pieces of a puzzle?


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #109101
02/27/09 07:57 PM
02/27/09 07:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Somehow the wicked suffer in the lake of fire described above in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness. Exactly how it happens is not clearly explained. Obviously there are dynamics at work which make it possible. To insist the description above is symbolic, that the fire therein depicted is not real, ignores the obvious. "The language of the Bible should be explained according to its obvious meaning, unless a symbol or figure is employed." {GC 598.3}

Re: does God punish? [Re: teresaq] #109102
02/27/09 08:00 PM
02/27/09 08:00 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: teresaq
does that cancel 109094?

or do they fit together like pieces of a puzzle?

There is no comparison between the Catholic view of eternal torment and the view she describes above. "Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds."

Re: does God punish? [Re: Mountain Man] #109104
02/27/09 08:14 PM
02/27/09 08:14 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
This is just duration. Before I asked you if you agreed with the view presented, except for duration, and you said you did. You're agreeing with what you said previously so far, because you are again only pointing to duration as a difference.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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