That's what I meant, namely, that Bob was taking it all into consideration. He wasn't redefining the other source of fire involved in the final judgment of the wicked.

1. I am simply asking that you pay at least some attention to the "details" in the statements she makes on the subject of the 2nd death and the 2nd coming as quoted in th above post. To this point you have been very very reluctant to bring yourself to read the questions to the point of actually answering each one "from the text".

In find that "instructive".

2. Your claim that the questions are pointing to details in conflict with the way you would like to have positioned other statements by Ellen White -- is also "instructive".

Notice that neither of these quotes argues that "God is arbitrary so he pours out unmingled wrath" AS IF there was any link at all between those two concepts.

You insert it -- but it is not in the text that you are so carefully avoiding.

in Christ,

Bob

Notice carefully that what is described below is REAL fire -- to the point that it is coming from Rocks and even reshaping the surface of the earth!


http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01998.htm


"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin.


Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}
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The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31.

They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1.

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}




Great Controversy P 486
http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01984.htm


In the typical service the high priest, having made the atonement for Israel, came forth and blessed the congregation. So Christ, at the close of His work as mediator, will appear, "without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28), to bless His waiting people with eternal life. As the priest, in removing the sins from the sanctuary, confessed them upon the head of the scapegoat, so Christ will place all these sins upon Satan, the originator and instigator of sin. The scapegoat, bearing the sins of Israel, was sent away "unto a land not inhabited" (Leviticus 16:22); so Satan, bearing the guilt of all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit, will be for a thousand years confined to the earth, which will then be desolate, without inhabitant, and he will at last suffer the
486
full penalty of sin in the fires that shall destroy all the wicked. [/b]; Thus the great plan of redemption will reach its accomplishment in the final eradication of sin and the deliverance of all who have been willing to renounce evil. {GC 485.3}

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Then of course as just stated in my previous post -- I would ask some very pointed questions that ask the reader to actually notice a couple of inconvenient details in the quotes above.

But some readers might simply consider this the "bad Ellen White" part of the Great Controversy so they can simply ignore it. Or maybe when they read this part of GC -- instead of seeing the words above -


in Christ,

Bob

The two descriptions are so different that they cannot be compared. No part of one resembles any part of the other. I have always said this. If you disagree, please post a quote where I said otherwise.


I’ve never said anything you’re accusing me of here.


I never said it is literal. I believe it is light. "The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked."

Now please answer my question. Thank you.


First, Ellen’s description in GC 672 and 673 says nothing about God using supernatural power to enable sinners to burn and suffer unnaturally. Second, throughout the Bible, God employed the forces of nature to cause death and destruction.

He destroyed two cities full of sinners with fire and brimstone. They were burned alive. This is true whether we use your view to explain how He did it or mine. He also used fire to kill Nadab and Abihu, the people who complained, and the 250 priests who sided with Korah. All of them were burned alive.


I could help noticing you implied God didn’t do these things because He is too kind and loving. Are you implying, then, that He didn’t even employ the “withdraw and permit” method of allowing death and destruction to happen?

Please point to me on pages 672 and 673 of the GC the fire you are talking about.

For example, is the following fire what you described above: "The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire"?

When we speak of "real" fire -- we are talking about something that even affects the rocks -- those rocks are not having an emotional moment.


Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven.

Lev 10:5 So they went near, and carried them in their coats out of the camp; as Moses had said.

nadab and abihu: its interesting how that fire "devoured" them but not their clothes. selective fire? then it also doesnt appear that they were ashes, but bodies, like annanias and sapphira of the nt? that is a strange fire.

apart from that, your examples seem rather instantaneous.

she made comments about that view. the comments about that view, i believe, are worthy of study.



perhaps, that is the problem. reading this as pertaining to only the "catholic" view, instead of understanding the principles she is stressing.

do you see it as "ok" for a specified time as opposed to eternity? God is somehow more "humane" because He will "torture" only for a limited amount of time as opposed to eternity?

There is nothing in this story that tells us that these men were "not burned -- they simply died of emotional stress" -- I am sure we all agree.

The fact that God is able to burn them so selectively -- that they burn without all of their clothing dissappearing -- is not a kind of "proof" that NEITHER they NOR their clothes burned.

in Christ,

Bob

This is still missing the point. Bob wanted to limit things to just the text he had quoted, leaving out the texts I had cited from consideration.

My point was this shouldn't be done, but that all that has been written on the subject should be taken into account, that anything she wrote in one text (given she's not being schizophrenic) will agree with what she's written elsewhere.