Regarding #109240, #109070 deals with this. I find it interesting that you say I am "avoiding" certain texts, when in fact I consider them point by point, you do not even address questions I raise, even when I raise them repeatedly.

For example, to name one, I've asked how you (or MM) think that God is capable of doing the things you're suggesting. If someone interpreted some text as Jesus being guilty of fornication, you'd simply reject such an interpretation on the fact of it, wouldn't you? What you are suggesting in relation to God as a far, far worse thing, in my view, an interpretation easily cast aside on the face of it, just on the basis of what God would have to be like to do the things being suggested.

So what's your response to this? Why do you think God in the final judgment will be so unlike what Jesus Christ revealed?

However, I see in Ellen White's writings, an emphasis on the principles I'm bringing out here. For example:



My view of divine justice harmonizes completely with the above. I can easily explain how God executes justice upon the wicked, for their own good, as well as how their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves.

Otoh, I don't see it can be explained that supernaturally keeping people alive so they can be engulfed by flames without dying for many hours or many days is something which can be seen in terms of kindness, mercy, or love. Nor how this is something the wicked would voluntarily choose. Nor how such an act would be for their own good.

Something else I've not seen from either you nor Bob is an explanation of the judgment which harmonizes with what she wrote elsewhere, namely DA 764, DA 108, GC 541-543, or GC 535-536. Ellen White said we should compare her writings on a given subject to determine her thoughts on it. Regarding the GC passage, it seems to be forgotten that she started the book with an entire chapter dealing with the subject of the destruction of Jerusalem, which explains in detail the principles involved. For example:



How does your view harmonize with these other passages?

the "emotional stress" are your words not mine, nor my suggestion.

is an assumption. they either burned to ashes, clothes and all, or they didnt.

the bible is the one that said they were carried out in their coats.

we can dig our feet into our different positions, harden our heart so to speak, or take a look at what the text is saying and question our understanding. that doesnt necessarily mean we have to take whatever comes along as an alternative explanation, just be open to the fact that we might be wrong.

our choice, God forces noone.

"Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin." {4aSG 125.1} "A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them." {Te 280.1} "God visited them with His wrath; fire went forth from His presence and destroyed them." {3T 295.2} The "coats" that were used to transport the charred bodies from camp belonged to Mishael and Elzaphan. Also, were you implying A&S were burned alive?

In addition to the fiery "dreadful death" and punishment of his sons, Aaron was commanded not to publicly express grief else he would suffer the same death and punishment:

The father of the men slain, and their brothers, were forbidden to manifest any signs of grief for the ones who had been justly punished of God. . . His heart was grieved at the dreadful death of his sons, while in their disobedience. Yet, according to God's command, he made no expression of his sorrow, lest he should share the same fate of his sons, and the congregation also be infected with the spirit of unreconciliation, and God's wrath come upon them. {4aSG 12.1}


Does this mean you believe they were not burned alive? The same firelight of God's presence burned alive the people who complained and the 250 priests. It is doubtful that the inhabitants of the Twin Cities were burned alive instantaneously.

BTW, the firelight of God's divine presence has the same fiery effect on sinful flesh as it does on the elements of the earth, which is also the same as other sources of fire. Listen:

The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath His way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of His feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. The mountains quake at Him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at His presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by Him. Nahum 1:3-6.

When the divine Presence was manifested upon Sinai, the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire in the sight of all Israel. But when Christ shall come in glory with His holy angels the whole earth shall be ablaze with the terrible light of His presence. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people." Psalm 50:3, 4. A fiery stream shall issue and come forth from before Him, which shall cause the elements to melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel." 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8. {PP 339.2}

Again, I believe the principles discussed in GC 535 and GC 672, 673 are so different that they cannot be compared. She is describing two entirely different things. As I see it, the main thing to learn from GC 535 is that no good can come from believing God burns disembodied spirits eternally in hellfire or that they can be liberated for hire or penance.

Do you think the quotes I posted in my last post reflect God "torturing" sinners with the firelight of His divine presence, a source of fire that can cause the elements of the earth to melt with fervent heat? Or, do you think God "tortured" the sinners of Sodom with fire rained down from above as it is described in the Bible (as opposed to some who believe it bubbled up from beneath the earth when God stopped preventing it from happening)?

Also, where do you read in the Bible or the SOP that sinners are supernaturally burned alive in the lake of fire? True, the passages describing that time and place and event talk about the earth being one vast molten, seething lake of fire, but where does it say the wicked are writhing in the flames without dying instantaneously as if kept alive supernaturally for the purpose of punishment?

Tom, did you overlook 109242 and 109243?

PS - My last two posts above contain info pertinent to our discussion. It shows how the firelight emanating from God's divine person and presence can cause the elements of the earth to melt with fervent heat. I get the impression from you, though, that this source of fire is symbolic and only causes sinners to suffer mental and emotional agony.

i did make an assumption that the coats were nadab and abihus. you make an assumption that they were the coats of others, unless you have a quote for that. otherwise we do not know.

my point was that they were not turned to ashes. "consumed" and "destroyed" in these contexts does not mean "to ashes".

no, i was not implying they were "burned alive".



this doesnt seem to have anything to do with the point.



why the use of the words "burned alive"? well, i will just assume you are trying to make your point.

are you comparing Gods fire with mans actions at the twintowers?


i dont know what that has to do with anything.

pretty tricky. i wont be responding.

That end-time revelation of God's agape, the one that destroys the wicked, is that a different revelation of agape than what Jesus gave while here? Was Christ's earthly revelation of God's character full and complete, or is there more to be revealed, which destroys the wicked in a way that did not happen when they saw Jesus in their midst?

Arnold, here's the DA 764 passage:



And the other one from DA 108:



It doesn't look like the revelation of agape is what is different, but the situation in which the wicked are found. For example, when Christ was here in the flesh, they could escape His presence. In the final judgment, there's no place to escape to (and similarly at that Second Coming).

Since you're entering into the discussion here, what do you think of the destruction of the wicked? Do you think God will supernaturally keep them alive so they can be burned by molten lava for many hours or many days (or something similar; literal fire engulfing them at any rate) to make them pay for their sins? Do you perceive God to be capable of doing this sort of thing?

Different how?



Maybe you misunderstood the question, but I asked if there was any difference between her description in GC 635, 636 and what you believed other than duration, and you said no. Again, I'm not holding you to this, I'm simply asking what you disagree with, other than duration.



In there section you quoted above this, there were two questions asked, both of which were answered.



It's simply unethical to quote something you wrote, and a response I made somewhere else, and paste them together as if I responded to what you wrote in the manner quoted.

I don't know if you're being purposely unethical or just careless. If it's the latter, you should proofread what you write before posting. This sort of thing is unacceptable.

Here is my actual response:



I did write such a post, to which you made no comment, IIRC.



Have you stopped beating your wife? This is the same sort of question. I've never spoken of a "withdraw and permit method of allowing death and destruction to happen."