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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10914
10/06/04 01:30 PM
10/06/04 01:30 PM
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Lawrence, Kansas
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I find it interesting that we keep agreeing that if we want to have victory over sin we should be focusing on Christ, not focusing on sin, yet the conversation keeps coming back to sin.
I believe absolutely in perfection of character, so I'll make that clear. I don't think asking the question, "Do you sin?" is in any way relevant to the conversation. I believe it's possible for the Christian to overcome sin. However, I think the means is not by focusing on sin.
I think John's point in 1 John is equivalent to saying that a born-again Christian will not rebel. When you look at the examples that John gives us sin, he's talking about taking care of your neighbor. If we someone in need, and don't help him, then how can we say the love of God abides in his heart? James says the same thing. So does Paul. Love is the fulfilling of the law.
I don't want to get involved in trying to define minutiae as to what constitutes a known sin or not.
God is gracious and kind. He is wonderfully patient. He understands our struggles. His grace will make us like Jesus, if we don't interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace.
It is by a revelation of Himself in Christ that God restores us to His image. It is not the fear of punishment or the hope of reward that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him, but they behold the matchless beauty of His character.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10915
10/06/04 01:58 PM
10/06/04 01:58 PM
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OP
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Restin, sometimes people have inflated and unrealistic ideas of what constitutes "righteousness and true godliness". Eph 4:24. In many cases, righteous people and righteousness go unknown and unnoticed. Take Jesus, for example. He lived in realitve obscurity for 30 years. Righteousness is ruddy and rugged, and not nearly as rare and unearthly as we think.
DA 109
The fact that Jesus had for so many years remained in obscurity, giving no special evidence of His mission, gave occasion for doubt as to whether He could be the Promised One. {DA 109.3}
But Jesus was, nonetheless, perfectly godly and righteous. And that's the point. In fact, not only was His righteousness largely overlooked, it was sometimes considered evil and unholy. "And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?" John 10:20.
The question is, who is to say we wouldn't have passed by Jesus, during those pre-public ministry days, unimpressed? Even later on, it was more His magic and miracles that made Him so singular and popular, notwithstanding the few souls who were attracted to Him because of His love and kindness.
What I'm getting at is this: our unrealistic ideas of what constitutes righteousness can cause us to doubt the promises of God - the ones that describe newborn babes as new creatures who do not and cannot commit a known sin while connected to Jesus - our unrealistic ideas can cause us to deny, doubt, disbelieve that these promises apply to us, that they actually describe our Christian experience.
Thus, some people, based on their over inflated ideas of godliness and righteousness, do not believe they are godly and righteous. But the problem is, most people are harder on themselves than is biblical. We are usually our worst critic. But if we are born again and connected to Christ, the Bible says we are perfect, morally sinless. The truthfulness of God’s Word does not depend on our feelings. It is true because God say so, not because we do or don’t think so, or feel so.
We must take God at His word, otherwise, we will doubt His word, and His plainly worded promises. The Bible says born again believers do not and cannot commit a known sin while abiding in Jesus, while walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man. Plain, and simple. That’s what God says. It is our duty and privilege to believe Him, and to take Him at His word.
John
8:34, 36 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin . . . If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Galatians
5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Philippians
2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
2 Peter
1:4, 5, 10 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue [knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, kindness, and charity] . . . For if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.
1 John
3:6, 7 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not . . . Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10916
10/07/04 02:10 AM
10/07/04 02:10 AM
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OP
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Tom, the problem, as I see it, with saying not sinning has nothing to do salvation and beholding the loveliness of Christ's character, is what Jesus Himself said about it.
John
5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
John
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
While I agree with you that we cannot resist sin, self and Satan by focusing on not sinning, or by focusing on righteousness, instead we must focus on Christ and Him crucified, but in so saying, the Cross of Christ is all about Jesus dying to pay our sin debt.
The love of God, as revealed on the Cross and the blood of Christ, is all about saving us from sin and sinning. The evidence that God is a God of love, who can be trusted throughout eternity to treat us fairly and to provide a safe, sin-free environment to enjoy eternal life, is the fact He can empower us to live without sinning here and now.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10917
10/07/04 02:28 AM
10/07/04 02:28 AM
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What does the SDA Bible Commentary say about 1 John 3:9? Let me first quote 1 John 3:9 here: quote:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
And here is what the SDA Bible Commentary has to say about that:
quote:
9. Whosoever. Again the apostle uses this comprehensive term (cf. on John 3:16; 1 John 3:4, 6). What he says applies to all who are “born of God.”
Born of God. See on ch. 2:29. But here, unlike ch. 2:29, there is no doubt that the writer is speaking of being born of the Father. John is the only NT author to speak of our being “begotten,” or “born of God” (John 1:13; 1 John 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18). The form of the Greek verb shows that he is referring to those who have been born of God and continue to be His children. He thus includes every Christian who has not returned to the world and thus denied the Lord who redeemed him.
Doth not commit sin. That is, he does not continue to sin, or he does not habitually sin (see on v. 6; the form of the Greek verb here is the same as it is there). The apostle thus characterizes those who have been born of God. They have experienced the new birth, their natures and changed, and they resemble their heavenly Father (see on John 3:3–5; 1 John 3:1). They hate the sin they used to love, and love the virtue they used to despise (see on Rom. 6:2, 6; 7:14, 15). Such people do not continue slaves to their old sins, they do not habitually commit their old mistakes. Divine power has given them the victory over those weaknesses, and is ready to aid them in overcoming other faults of which they may not previously have been aware.
His seed. That is, God’s seed, “the divine principle of life” (Vincent), which, implanted in a sinner, brings the new man to birth and produces the Christian. This divine “seed” abides in the truly converted man, ensures him spiritual energy, and enables him successfully to resist sin. John thus gives God the credit for the Christian’s sinlessness. Because the divine power operates in his soul, the Christian does not continue to sin.
Cannot sin. Or, “is not able to go on sinning,” or “is not able to go on habitually sinning.” This does not mean that the Christian is incapable of committing a wrong act. If he were unable to sin, there would be no virtue in his being without sin, and there would be no true development of character. John has already implied that he will make occasional mistakes (see on ch. 2:1). The passage means that, having been born of God, and having God’s life-giving power dwelling in him, he cannot continue his old pattern of habitual sin. He now follows the sinless ideals that have been implanted in his soul by the new birth.
It also gave reference to 1 John 3:6 quoted below:
quote:
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
And the SDA Bible Commentary says:
quote:
6. Whosoever abideth. Another of John’s comprehensive statements (cf. chs. 2:23; 3:4, 9, 15; 1 John 4:15; 5:1). The word “abideth” may suggest an active willingness to remain in union with Christ. The form of the verb in Greek implies continuity—whosoever continues to abide.
Sinneth not. Or, “does not continue to sin,” or “does not habitually sin,” as the form of the Greek verb implies. The apostle is here speaking of habitual sin, not of occasional mistakes which every Christian is prone to make (see on ch. 2:1). John knows that Christians are inveigled into sin (ch. 1:8, 10), but he also knows the remedy for such failures (chs. 1:9; 2:1). Here he is speaking of the ideal state that is attainable by one who habitually abides in the protecting presence of the sinless Saviour.
Whosoever sinneth. That is, whosoever habitually sins (see above on “whosoever abideth”). John refers to the one who habitually sins, the one who continues to practice sin.
Hath not seen. The one who continues to sin demonstrates that he has not retained his original vision of Christ.
Know him. See on ch. 2:3.
The SDA Commentary on the above verses clearly says that the Greek word implies continual and habitual sin.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10918
10/06/04 03:05 PM
10/06/04 03:05 PM
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OP
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Here's what the author above said: quote:
John has already implied that he will make occasional mistakes (see on ch. 2:1).
And here's what John said:
quote:
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Whereas the author says John implies we will sin, John himself, on the other hand, says, If any man sin. The difference is significant. He doesn't say, When we sin. Instead, he clearly says, If we sin. There is no excuse for committing a known sin. Yes, there are reasons, but they don't count as excuses.
In this next quote, the author is in agreement with John:
quote:
Here he is speaking of the ideal state that is attainable by one who habitually abides in the protecting presence of the sinless Saviour.
This is also what I'm saying. If we are abiding in Jesus, we will not commit a known sin. Obviously, therefore, in order to commit a known we must first disconnect from Jesus.
It is unbiblical to quote 1 John 2:1 and 3:6 and 3:9 to prove that born again believers will sin, but that they will not long continue in that sin, that they will quickly repent, as if sinning and repenting is a normal part of abiding in Jesus. Sister White put it this way:
quote:
Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10919
10/06/04 03:34 PM
10/06/04 03:34 PM
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OP
SDA
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Again, please listen to how Sister White describes abiding in Jesus.
AA 563
John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law. {AA 563.1}
There are many who, though striving to obey God's commandments, have little peace or joy. This lack in their experience is the result of a failure to exercise faith. They walk as it were in a salt land, a parched wilderness. They claim little, when they might claim much; for there is no limit to the promises of God. Such ones do not correctly represent the sanctification that comes through obedience to the truth. The Lord would have all His sons and daughters happy, peaceful, and obedient. Through the exercise of faith the believer comes into possession of these blessings. Through faith, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed. {AA 563.2}
AH 403
Who can know, in the moment of temptation, the terrible consequences which will result from one wrong, hasty step! Our only safety is to be shielded by the grace of God every moment, and not put out our own spiritual eyesight so that we will call evil, good, and good, evil. Without hesitation or argument we must close and guard the avenues of the soul against evil. {AH 403.1}
Every Christian must stand on guard continually, watching every avenue of the soul where Satan might find access. He must pray for divine help and at the same time resolutely resist every inclination to sin. By courage, by faith, by persevering toil, he can conquer. But let him remember that to gain the victory Christ must abide in him and he in Christ. {AH 403.2}
DA 675, 676
"I am the Vine, ye are the branches," Christ said to His disciples. Though He was about to be removed from them, their spiritual union with Him was to be unchanged. The connection of the branch with the vine, He said, represents the relation you are to sustain to Me. The scion is engrafted into the living vine, and fiber by fiber, vein by vein, it grows into the vine stock. The life of the vine becomes the life of the branch. So the soul dead in trespasses and sins receives life through connection with Christ. By faith in Him as a personal Saviour the union is formed. The sinner unites his weakness to Christ's strength, his emptiness to Christ's fullness, his frailty to Christ's enduring might. Then he has the mind of Christ. The humanity of Christ has touched our humanity, and our humanity has touched divinity. Thus through the agency of the Holy Spirit man becomes a partaker of the divine nature. He is accepted in the Beloved. {DA 675.3}
This union with Christ, once formed, must be maintained. Christ said, "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in Me." This is no casual touch, no off-and-on connection. The branch becomes a part of the living vine. The communication of life, strength, and fruitfulness from the root to the branches is unobstructed and constant. Separated from the vine, the branch cannot live. No more, said Jesus, can you live apart from Me. The life you have received from Me can be preserved only by continual communion. Without Me you cannot overcome one sin, or resist one temptation. {DA 676.1}
"Abide in Me, and I in you." Abiding in Christ means a constant receiving of His Spirit, a life of unreserved surrender to His service. The channel of communication must be open continually between man and his God. As the vine branch constantly draws the sap from the living vine, so are we to cling to Jesus, and receive from Him by faith the strength and perfection of His own character. {DA 676.2}
The root sends its nourishment through the branch to the outermost twig. So Christ communicates the current of spiritual strength to every believer. So long as the soul is united to Christ, there is no danger that it will wither or decay. {DA 676.3}
The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10920
10/06/04 09:21 PM
10/06/04 09:21 PM
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Active Member 2012
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(thanks Daniel for the SDABC quote)
"Tom, the problem, as I see it, with saying not sinning has nothing to do salvation and beholding the loveliness of Christ's character, is what Jesus Himself said about it."
That's not what I said. I try to be careful with the things I write, so please be careful in quoting me. What I said is that our salvation does not depend upon our living sinlessly. That's not the same thing as saying that not sinning has nothing to do with salvation by a long, long way.
I think the Bible Commentary is correct. When John said "if anyone sins" that means it is implied that someone might/would sin. We know from practical experience that we can and do sin. John wants us not to get discouraged if that happens. The use of the word "if" means that sinning is not inevitable.
I would say that not sinning is possible, and should be our goal, although I think if we think of it in those terms it will never be acheived. If we think about not sinning in terms of beholding Christ, then I think God has a chance of achieving His purposes for us.
You are saying that we have to disconnect from Christ in order to commit a known sin. The Bible Commentary was saying that one who habitually abides in Christ may attain the state where he doesn't sin. I think what the Bible Commentary is saying is in harmony with what John wrote, and I also thing what EGW wrote is in harmony with that. I didn't see anything in her quotes that would deny that.
This is not to say that sinless living is impossible. Inspiration clearly teaches there is no excuse for sin. That's not the same thing as what you are saying, however. You're saying, as I understand it, that the ideal MUST be the reality. I understand inspiration is saying the ideal SHOULD be the reality; it is something to strive for.
I still don't like this way of thinking about it. A much more positive way of looking at things is that God will make us like Jesus if we do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. He does this by revealing Christ to us. By beholding we become changed.
This puts the focus where it should be: on God, on Christ, not on us, and not on sin.
Why should we even care about not sinning? (serious question, I'm getting at motivation here)
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10921
10/06/04 11:45 PM
10/06/04 11:45 PM
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OP
SDA
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quote:
Why should we even care about not sinning?
Hebrews
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
TDG 98
Our hearts cannot reflect light until there is a vital connection with heaven. This alone can make them burn steadily with holy, unselfish love for Jesus, and for all who are the purchase of His blood. And unless we are constantly replenished with the golden oil, the flame will die out. Unless the love of God is an abiding principle in our hearts, our light will go out. . . . {TDG 98.2}
Satan and his confederate angels point to those who profess to be children of God, but who by their disposition and actions show that they are after the similitude of the apostate, and taunt Christ and the heavenly angels. How long shall we thus crucify the Son of God afresh, so that God is ashamed to call us His sons and daughters? {TDG 98.3}
TDG 339
All who learn in Christ's school are under the training of heavenly agencies; and they are never to forget that they are a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. They are to represent Christ. They are to help one another to become worthy of admission into the higher school. They are to help one another to be pure and noble, and to cherish a true idea of what it means to be a child of God. They are to speak encouraging words. They are to lift up the feeble hands and strengthen the feeble knees. Upon every heart there is to be inscribed the words, as with the point of a diamond, "There is nothing that I fear, save that I shall not know my duty, or shall fail to do it." We are living in a time when we should seek the Lord most earnestly. . . . {TDG 339.2}
There are many ways in which human beings can crucify the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame. The worship of worldly business so confuses the mind that Satan stealthily approaches, and insidiously gains entrance. He has many theories by which to lead astray those who will be led. The erroneous views of God that the world is entertaining are skepticism in disguise, preparing the way for atheism. By hasty words and selfish deeds, men often grieve the heart of Christ. thus Satan works untiringly to lead them to disloyalty. As he gains control of minds, he makes upon them lasting impressions, and the realities of eternity fade away. {TDG 339.3}
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10922
10/07/04 12:00 AM
10/07/04 12:00 AM
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OP
SDA
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quote:
This is not to say that sinless living is impossible. Inspiration clearly teaches there is no excuse for sin. That's not the same thing as what you are saying, however. You're saying, as I understand it, that the ideal MUST be the reality. I understand inspiration is saying the ideal SHOULD be the reality; it is something to strive for.
The ideal IS the reality when we are connected to Jesus. That's the only time, and the only way, it can be. Without Christ all we can do is sin. Inspirations agrees.
quote:
The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. {MH 180.5}
Jesus is our example. He never sinned. Why? Because He was habitually connected to the Father. Just because born again believers occasionally backslide does not mean humanity, combined with divinity, can and does sin occasionally.
If, as you say, there is no excuse for committing a known sin, there must be a reason why it is true. And that reason would have to apply to all sin, great and small, hard and easy, intentional and unintentional. God will not allow us to be tempted, tested or tried above His ability to empower us to resist unto and His honor and glory.
Since there is no excuse for committing a known sin, we can take God at His word. We do not have to dilute it or change it to accommodate the occasional sin. We can claim His promises exactly the way they are worded and recorded in the Bible and the SOP.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10923
10/07/04 03:54 PM
10/07/04 03:54 PM
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Active Member 2012
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You didn't answer my question about not sinning. At least not in a way that I can understand. My request is that you answer, in your own words, why it is important that we not sin.
If you are correct, that all that we need to do in order to not sin is be connected to Jesus, then that's great! All we need to focus on is remaining connected to Him. To do that it suffices to not resist God's grace. So let's do that! Let's not resist the goodness of God. Let's learn of His goodness and share insights of His character with one another, since it is by beholding Him that we are transformed.
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