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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10934
10/15/04 01:15 AM
10/15/04 01:15 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I appreciate your focus on Christ. But Jesus is not the weak link in our salvation. We are. That's why, I believe, it is important for us to ask, "What must I do to be saved"?
Daryl, I agree with you. The conversion controversy is related to our misunderstanding of conversion, rebirth and moral perfection.
Will, just because you curse when you flub up doesn't mean you were never converted or born again. It's just that sin separates us from Jesus, that's why we curse instead of resist.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10935
10/15/04 05:11 PM
10/15/04 05:11 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, I appreciate your focus on Christ. But Jesus is not the weak link in our salvation. We are. That's why, I believe, it is important for us to ask, "What must I do to be saved"?
That's easy. Don't resist.
quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10936
10/15/04 05:47 PM
10/15/04 05:47 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Amen! That's what I've been saying all along. Born again believers are new creatures in Christ, the old man is dead, the new man is alive, everything is brand new. As newborn babes in Christ we are morally sinless.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10937
10/15/04 07:40 PM
10/15/04 07:40 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
As newborn babes in Christ we are morally sinless.
I think a statement like this is very likely to be misunderstood. An equivalent statement like "As newborn babes in Christ, we are in morally in harmony with God." or "As newborn babes in Christ, the law is written in our hearts."
These should be equivalent statements to what you wrote, and much less likely to be misunderstood I think.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10938
10/15/04 08:55 PM
10/15/04 08:55 PM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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So true. But I've also found that it is so vague that two people, using the same words, can intend opposite meanings. That's why it's necessary to be more specific.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10939
10/16/04 11:49 AM
10/16/04 11:49 AM
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Thanks so much, Daryl, for suspending the quotes. Long quotes make the forum a tiresome jumble to read, when reading on the computer screen is a bit of a strain at best. ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif) I'm okay with a brief one sentence quote for focus, but long quotes infer that I'm too dumb to keep track of what is being discussed, not to mention having to scroll on ahead of them to search out the new reply. Thanks so much. It means I will spend more time here. And i think this applies to many other people as well. ![[Thank You]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10940
10/16/04 01:15 PM
10/16/04 01:15 PM
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Charter Member
Active Member 2014
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,019
Northern CA
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quote:
Regarding unintentional, spontaneous outbursts of sin, such as cursing when you hit your finger with a hammer, God can even empower us to respond in a Christlike manner under such circumstances. There is no situation God cannot empower us to be Christlike.
I can testify to this being true. When I was not a Christian I admitt I cussed. And whenever I hit my finger, etc. the cuss words just came out instead of just ouch. I spent a whole week with some people who did not cuss and I had to really catch myself whenever something like this happened as I did not want to offend them, and I think by beholding I was being changed too. That of course did not last. When I came home of course I was back to my old habits.
Then I became a follower of Christ. I must admit the changes did not come overnight. But I will say for a fact that I do not think or say a cuss word when something like hitting my finger happens. At work they are always watching me to see if I will trip up. It is really kind of funny to see them all just stop and see what I will say. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10941
10/18/04 02:29 AM
10/18/04 02:29 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
As newborn babes in Christ we are morally sinless.
So true. But I've also found that it is so vague that two people, using the same words, can intend opposite meanings. That's why it's necessary to be more specific.
The problem is you're being less specific, not more. The statement "morally in harmony with God" is probably understandable by just about everyone. If you ask 5 people what "morally sinless" means, you're likely to get 5 different answers.
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10942
10/18/04 03:55 AM
10/18/04 03:55 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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What is the difference between moral, mental and physical perfection?
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Re: The Conversion Controversy
#10943
10/19/04 04:06 AM
10/19/04 04:06 AM
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OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Jesus was morally perfect, but He was not intellectually or physically perfect. Obviously, therefore, being morally perfect is all that counts between now and the return of Christ, at which time we will be made physically perfect too. But not intellectually perfect. Eternity isn't long enough to exhaust our potential to learn more and more. Also, we will continue to mature morally throughout eternity.
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