As for WHY
God acts in the role of the LION --

the answer is that WE need it.

(WE the surviving saints -- and the unfallen universe) to secure the universe against sin for all of eternity. It has nothing to do with "God likes it" and it has nothing to do with "Saints like it".

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, are you reading the posts on this thread? On page 37 I addressed this. On page 43 I told on what post I addressed this. I've been telling you over and over that your assertion is untrue, and asking you to respond to my post, but rather than doing this, you just keep making the same untrue assertion over and over again.

This is difficult to understand.

Questions for the reader.

1. What does the phrase “His fury upon all their armies” refer too in the text above”?
2. What does the phrase “Suffer the full penalty of sin in the fires” refer to – in the text above?
3. Is it the same as the phrase above “The full penalty of the LAW has been visited ”??
4. When the text speaks of those who “suffer for many days” does this mean all or just some?
5. When the text says that by comparison “he is still to live and suffer on” after all others have perished… is that fair?
6. In the text the argument is made that in this way “the demands of justice have been met” is that really true as you see it?
7. In the text above when it is said that ”punishment is far greater” for Satan than for others suffering there – are ALL punished??

B:I have repeatedly stated that GC 672-673 is NOT a list of "my suggestions".

I'm not asking about GC 672-673, but your interpretation of it. There's nothing in GC 672-673 which says that God will burn people alive, supernaturally keeping them alive so they can suffer, which seems to be your view.

How can you assert that these other passages are not dealing with the subject? What do you think GC 541-543 is dealing with, if not the judgment? Or DA 764? Or GC 535-536?

But Bob, DA 764 deals just as DIRECTLY with the subject as GC 672-673 does.

God's love has been expressed in His justice no less than in His mercy. Justice is the foundation of His throne, and the fruit of His love. It had been Satan's purpose to divorce mercy from truth and justice. He sought to prove that the righteousness of God's law is an enemy to peace. But Christ shows that in God's plan they are indissolubly joined together; the one cannot exist without the other. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Ps. 85:10. {DA 762.3}

By His life and His death, Christ proved that God's justice did not destroy His mercy, but that sin could be forgiven, and that the law is righteous, and can be perfectly obeyed. Satan's charges were refuted. God had given man unmistakable evidence of His love. {DA 762.4}

DA
Another deception was now to be brought forward. Satan declared that mercy destroyed justice, that the death of Christ abrogated the Father's law. Had it been possible for the law to be changed or abrogated, then Christ need not have died. But to abrogate the law would
763
be to immortalize transgression, and place the world under Satan's control. It was because the law was changeless, because man could be saved only through obedience to its precepts, that Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Yet the very means by which Christ established the law Satan represented as destroying it. Here will come the last conflict of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. {DA 762.5}

That the law which was spoken by God's own voice is faulty, that some specification has been set aside, is the claim which Satan now puts forward. It is the last great deception that he will bring upon the world. He needs not to assail the whole law; if he can lead men to disregard one precept, his purpose is gained. For "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10. By consenting to break one precept, men are brought under Satan's power. By substituting human law for God's law, Satan will seek to control the world. This work is foretold in prophecy. Of the great apostate power which is the representative of Satan, it is declared, "He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand." Dan. 7:25. {DA 763.1}

Men will surely set up their laws to counterwork the laws of God. They will seek to compel the consciences of others, and in their zeal to enforce these laws they will oppress their fellow men. {DA 763.2}

The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes. Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion. {DA 763.3}

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished;

but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

Well, then, might the angels rejoice as they looked upon the Saviour's cross; for though they did not then understand all, they knew that the destruction of sin and Satan was forever made certain, that the redemption of man was assured, and that the universe was made eternally secure. Christ Himself fully comprehended the results of the sacrifice made upon Calvary. To all these He looked forward when upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished." {DA 764.4}

The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. (GC 536)

T:But Bob, DA 764 deals just as DIRECTLY with the subject as GC 672-673 does.

B:On the contrary

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)

- DA 762-764 is in fact about the death of Christ and the fact that the JUSTICE of God must be met. It provides NO information about the number of DAYS that Lucifer suffers or the DAYS that some of the wicked suffer vs others burned in an instant OR the fire that comes from the rocks -- all of these "details" are found in the chapter that is actually ON the subject of the lake of fire (as it turns out).

Thus we have the gospel for the SAINTS -- that they are saved without compromising justice. That they are getting both Justice AND MERCY (A good example of NOT speaking to the UNMINGLED WRATH as the wicked are said to get in GC 672-673. FOR that discussion you actually have to go TO GC 672-673 as we have already seen)

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited.(GC 541)

Having only mentioned the END RESULT we are now told that the "result" (no more wicked) is not an arbitrary act (Calvinist arbitrary selection) but rather is a consequence of specific individual free will choice to rebel against God rather than to submit and serve God.

But what are the "details" in exactly HOW "sin will be EXTERMINATED"?? Not described in DA -- not the subject of DA -- for that we need to go to the text that has that as it's subject -- GC 672-673.

God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life.

By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.

are you saying that we need to see the wicked tormented for days in punishment for whatever deeds they did, so that we will never want to sin again?

seems like God could have saved an awful lot of pain and suffering, 6000 years of it, if in the end we are going to be good out of fear of being roasted alive.

He could have roasted satan and the fallen angels, and everybody would have shaped up real quick, pretty much for eternity would be a good bet, especially if He saved a "movie" of it to show anyone who was getting any ideas......

bobryan: I am saying that it would pay to notice the details in GC 672-673 and then respond to them - as the questions I have added for those two pages would require should you ever allow yourself to address them.

As long as the intent is to position this as if I am the source of GC 672-673 and never actually deal with "the details" in that text -- we keep going around in circles.

Why not simply address the enumerated list of Questions directly -- for they ask for an answer "from the text" not "from avoiding the text at all costs".

I am saying that what we see "in the text" is being done for the good of those who survive the event -- the living.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

M: Again, I believe the principles discussed in GC 535 and GC 672, 673 are so different that they cannot be compared. She is describing two entirely different things.

T: I agree with your conclusion, but this is because I see what's happening in GC 672, 673 very differently than you do. It appears to me that you see these things as essentially the same, the principle difference being one of duration.

M: As I see it, the main thing to learn from GC 535 is that no good can come from believing God burns disembodied spirits eternally in hellfire or that they can be liberated for hire or penance.

T: I think you missed the main thing. Here's what I think the main thing is:


This looks to me to apply directly to the view you are espousing.

M: Do you think the quotes I posted in my last post reflect God "torturing" sinners with the firelight of His divine presence, a source of fire that can cause the elements of the earth to melt with fervent heat?

T: No, I've not had any problems with the quotes, just your interpretation of them. Regarding your interpretation, yes.

M: Or, do you think God "tortured" the sinners of Sodom with fire rained down from above as it is described in the Bible (as opposed to some who believe it bubbled up from beneath the earth when God stopped preventing it from happening)?

T: Not sure what you're asking here. I certainly don't think God tortured the sinners of Sodom.

M: Also, where do you read in the Bible or the SOP that sinners are supernaturally burned alive in the lake of fire?

T: This is an odd question. I've been arguing against this view the whole time, right? So why ask me where I read this in the Bible or the SOP?

M: True, the passages describing that time and place and event talk about the earth being one vast molten, seething lake of fire, but where does it say the wicked are writhing in the flames without dying instantaneously as if kept alive supernaturally for the purpose of punishment?

T: Where indeed!

M: BTW, the difference between GC 535 and GC 672, 673 are: 1) Disembodied spirits writhing in flames in hell forever and God taking great pleasure in their shrieks and agony. 2) Sinners suffering mental and physical agony in proportion to their sinfulness while the earth is engulfed in fire.

T: Regarding 1), she doesn't say anything about disembodied spirits. Regarding 2), this is duration. I've been asking if you see some difference other than duration between your view and the one she discusses on GC 535. I agree that it's unfair to torture someone forever based on a limited amount of evil. However, you seem to saying it's OK to torture them for a few hours or a few days, and it seems to me what she wrote in GC 535-536 applies against as well.

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, he will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." {3SG 87.2}

The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath His way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of His feet. He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth. The mountains quake at Him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at His presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before His indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of His anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by Him. Nahum 1:3-6.

When the divine Presence was manifested upon Sinai, the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire in the sight of all Israel. But when Christ shall come in glory with His holy angels the whole earth shall be ablaze with the terrible light of His presence. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people." Psalm 50:3, 4. A fiery stream shall issue and come forth from before Him, which shall cause the elements to melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel." 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8. {PP 339.2}

An earthquake marked the hour when Christ laid down His life, and another earthquake witnessed the moment when He took it up in triumph. He who had vanquished death and the grave came forth from the tomb with the tread of a conqueror, amid the reeling of the earth, the flashing of lightning, and the roaring of thunder. When He shall come to the earth again, He will shake "not the earth only, but also heaven." "The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage." "The heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll;" "the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." But "the Lord will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel." Heb. 12:26; Isa. 24:20; 34:4; 2 Peter 3:10; Joel 3:16. {DA 780.1}

In the day of the Lord, just before the coming of Christ, God will send lightnings from Heaven in His wrath, which will unite with fire in the earth. The mountains will burn like a furnace, and will pour forth terrible streams of lava, destroying gardens and fields, villages and cities; and as they pour their melted ore, rocks and heated mud into the rivers, will cause them to boil like a pot, and send forth massive rocks and scatter their broken fragments upon the land with indescribable violence. Whole rivers will be dried up. The earth will be convulsed, and there will be dreadful eruptions and earthquakes everywhere. God will plague the wicked inhabitants of the earth until they are destroyed from off it. {Mar 283.1}

The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and be removed as a cottage. The elements shall be in flames, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll. {Mar 283.2}

The earth's crust will be rent by the outbursts of the elements concealed in the bowels of the earth. These elements, once broken loose, will sweep away the treasures of those who for years have been adding to their wealth by securing large possessions at starvation prices from those in their employ. {Mar 283.3}

The great general conflagration is but just ahead, when all this wasted labor of life will be swept away in a night and day. {Mar 283.4}