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Re: Did Jesus have to earn the right to pardon and save sinners?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#109332
03/03/09 11:28 PM
03/03/09 11:28 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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God is love. Why could He not have merely pardoned us without all of the anguish and trouble of a sacrifice? "Without the shedding of blood" there is no remission for sin. Therefore, love may have driven God to this sacrificial act, but love alone has no power to save. It is equal to the law in this sense. I could just as easily make a case that the law demanded the blood of Christ as to say His love did. We say the law is a transcript of God’s character but we must clarify that in the two ways named above they are not the same. True, love is an attribute of God’s character but it is not God itself. However, let me further emphasize the point here: God loves all of His creatures. If love is able to save (as opposed to the law, which you claim is powerless), why will not all people be saved? If they are saved, is it not by fulfilling and keeping the law? Indeed, the law is just as much responsible for our salvation as is God's love, despite our traditional rhetoric to the contrary. Yes, the law is powerless to save sinners. Listen: But he knows that the law cannot in any way remove the guilt or pardon the transgressor. He must go farther than this. The law is but the schoolmaster to bring him to Christ. {1SM 213.2} He who is trying to reach heaven by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. {1SM 364.1} Though the law cannot remit the penalty for sin, but charges the sinner with all his debt, Christ has promised abundant pardon to all who repent, and believe in His mercy. {1SM 371.1} If they are saved, is it not by fulfilling and keeping the law? Indeed, the law is just as much responsible for our salvation as is God's love, despite our traditional rhetoric to the contrary. No, sinners are not saved by faith in Jesus plus by keeping the law. Our salvation is based entirely upon faith in the fact Jesus obeyed the law perfectly for us and then paid our sin debt of death on the cross. Listen: Christ consented to die in the sinner's stead, that man, by a life of obedience, might escape the penalty of the law of God. {AG 160.3} Where love is perfected, the law is kept, and self finds no place. {RC 103.5} He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law. {FW 95.3} On the contrary, the very fact that it was necessary for Christ to die in order to atone for the transgression of that law, proves it to be immutable. {PP 365.3} Let the subject be made distinct and plain that it is not possible to effect anything in our standing before God or in the gift of God to us through creature merit. Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth. If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do, then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins. Salvation, then, is partly of debt, that may be earned as wages. If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift. Justification by faith is placed beyond controversy. And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him. {FW 19.3} I am not trying to say that the law demanded a substitute, I am trying to say that a sinless substitute was required by the law in order for sinners to escape the death penalty of the law. Again, please support this idea with inspired statements. If you want to let it remain a mystery for you, so be it. The mystery part in my mind is the sheer enormity of the love which God must have. We may never comprehend this fully. We should be able to agree on the following insights: The transgression of God's law made it necessary for Christ to die a sacrifice, and thus make a way possible for man to escape the penalty, and yet the honor of God's law be preserved. {3SG 295.3}
But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. {GC 544.2}
The transgression of God's law in a single instance, in the smallest particular, is sin. And the nonexecution of the penalty of that sin would be a crime in the divine administration. God is a judge, the avenger of justice, which is the habitation and foundation of His throne. He cannot dispense with His law, He cannot do away with its smallest item in order to meet and pardon sin. The rectitude and justice and moral excellence of the law must be maintained and vindicated before the heavenly universe and the worlds unfallen. {7BC 951.4}
There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor. The penalty must be exacted. The Lord does not save sinners by abolishing His law, the foundation of His government in heaven and in earth. The punishment has been endured by the sinner's substitute. Not that God is cruel and merciless, and Christ so merciful that He died on Calvary's cross to abolish a law so arbitrary that it needed to be extinguished, crucified between two thieves. The throne of God must not bear one stain of crime, one taint of sin. In the councils of heaven, before the world was created, the Father and the Son covenanted together that if man proved disloyal to God, Christ, one with the Father, would take the place of the transgressor, and suffer the penalty of justice that must fall upon him (MS 145, 1897). {6BC 1070.4}
The most guilty need have no fear but that God will pardon, for because of the efficacy of the divine sacrifice the penalty of the law will be remitted. Through Christ the sinner may return to allegiance to God. {TMK 96.2}
Christ was to die as man's substitute. Man was a criminal under the sentence of death for transgression of the law of God, as a traitor, a rebel; hence a substitute for man must die as a malefactor, because He stood in the place of the traitors, with all their treasured sins upon His divine soul. It was not enough that Jesus should die in order to fully meet the demands of the broken law, but He died a shameful death. The prophet gives to the world His words, "I hid not my face from shame and spitting. {5BC 1127.4}
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Re: Did Jesus have to earn the right to pardon and save sinners?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109333
03/03/09 11:32 PM
03/03/09 11:32 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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As you look into the Lord's great moral looking glass, His holy law, His standard of character, do not for a moment suppose that it can cleanse you. There are no saving properties in the law. It cannot pardon the transgressor. The penalty must be exacted. The Lord does not save sinners by abolishing His law, the foundation of His government in heaven and in earth. The punishment has been endured by the sinner's substitute. Not that God is cruel and merciless, and Christ so merciful that He died on Calvary's cross to abolish a law so arbitrary that it needed to be extinguished, crucified between two thieves. The throne of God must not bear one stain of crime, one taint of sin. In the councils of heaven, before the world was created, the Father and the Son covenanted together that if man proved disloyal to God, Christ, one with the Father, would take the place of the transgressor, and suffer the penalty of justice that must fall upon him (MS 145, 1897). {6BC 1070.4}
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Re: Did Jesus have to earn the right to pardon and save sinners?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109346
03/04/09 01:36 AM
03/04/09 01:36 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Mike, Faith without works is dead, being alone. (James 2) We are saved by works. We are saved by hope. We are saved by enduring. We are saved by baptism. We are saved by the name of Jesus. We are saved by fear. We are saved by blood. We are saved by grace. We are saved by faith. We are saved by love. We are saved by Christ. There is no one thing that saves us. You cannot attach the word "alone", as in "we are saved by grace alone", to any of these things. This includes love. The reason is simple: God has created us with the power to choose. He will not save us against our will. Yet all of these things are instrumental in our salvation, if we choose to accept it. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (Romans 8:24, KJV)
That thy beloved may be delivered: save with thy right hand, and answer me. (Psalms 108:6, KJV)
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Jude 1:23, KJV)
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Matthew 1:21, KJV)
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. (Matthew 10:22, KJV)
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace. (Luke 7:50, KJV)
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. (Luke 18:42, KJV)
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:21, KJV)
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Acts 15:11, KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:8, KJV)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12, KJV)
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (James 2:14, KJV)
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:9, KJV)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21, KJV)
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:15, KJV)
While we should seek to make salvation simple and easy to understand, we should not oversimplify it to any one thing, for to do so is inaccurate and misleading. Jesus cannot save us, alone. We must choose His way and accept His salvation. We must endure. We must repent and be baptized. We must call upon Him. We must confess His name before our fellow men. We must work out our salvation by "fear and trembling." "Come, let us reason together" (Isaiah 1:18). We work, and God works. His law is just as much a part of the picture as His love. Is it not salvation from SIN, which equals transgression of God's law, that we so much desire? Or are we just trying to take an easy shortcut to life from the penalty of death without regard to God's law? The salvation I crave is to be free of sin. This is what Jesus offers us. If He were not powerful enough to free us now...if we are required to wait for some "magic" transformation at His coming...then God is not who I wish and understand Him to be. In any case, this topic begins to migrate now toward a discussion of the 1888 message. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Did Jesus have to earn the right to pardon and save sinners?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#109359
03/04/09 03:15 AM
03/04/09 03:15 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Yes, love demands this, but not law. Love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:10)
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Did Jesus have to earn the right to pardon and save sinners?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#109360
03/04/09 03:21 AM
03/04/09 03:21 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, your explanation above of why the death of Jesus was required focuses on the affect it can have on sinners in influencing them to cease sinning and to love and obey God. However, it doesn't address the matter of past sins. So, what about past sins? What does the law require? What does justice demand? Is law and justice willing to ignore past sins if sinners to cease to sin and love and obey God? Or, does law and justice still demand that death must happen in consequence of past sins, and is this one of the reasons why Jesus had to die? Your question presupposes there's a problem with past sins which doesn't have to do with our relationship with God. If the problem of past sins is that it damages our relationship with God, and God comes up with a way to fix that, and that remedy is accepted, then why shouldn't this be sufficient? Ellen White wrote: Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90) If a person has been set right with God, why isn't that enough?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Did Jesus have to earn the right to pardon and save sinners?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#109361
03/04/09 03:29 AM
03/04/09 03:29 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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PS - The quotes posted above demonstrate that the plan of salvation is mysterious and unexplainable. I'm assuming this is directed at me, with the idea of defending the idea of "ignorant obedience." I agree with your PS. What's mysterious and unexplainable is the love of God which would lead Him to give so much. Also that this gift can have the effect of fixing things, for beings so entrenched in sin.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Did Jesus have to earn the right to pardon and save sinners?
[Re: Tom]
#109416
03/05/09 03:15 PM
03/05/09 03:15 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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GC, do we add anything to the salvation Jesus wrought out for us when we consent and cooperate with God? I agree with you that our faith must work by love and purify us even as Jesus is pure but do we add to the work of Jesus as we experience genuine faith and works? Was His work incomplete and we must somehow add to it? Or, is Jesus' work the root of salvation and the good works we experience are the fruit of His work?
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Re: Did Jesus have to earn the right to pardon and save sinners?
[Re: Tom]
#109417
03/05/09 03:20 PM
03/05/09 03:20 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Yes, love demands this, but not law. Love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:10) Are you implying here that law demands the death of a sinless, divine substitute in consequence of sin in order to pardon and save sinners?
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Re: Did Jesus have to earn the right to pardon and save sinners?
[Re: Tom]
#109419
03/05/09 03:32 PM
03/05/09 03:32 PM
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OP
SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, your explanation above of why the death of Jesus was required focuses on the affect it can have on sinners in influencing them to cease sinning and to love and obey God. However, it doesn't address the matter of past sins. So, what about past sins? What does the law require? What does justice demand? Is law and justice willing to ignore past sins if sinners to cease to sin and love and obey God? Or, does law and justice still demand that death must happen in consequence of past sins, and is this one of the reasons why Jesus had to die? Your question presupposes there's a problem with past sins which doesn't have to do with our relationship with God. If the problem of past sins is that it damages our relationship with God, and God comes up with a way to fix that, and that remedy is accepted, then why shouldn't this be sufficient? Ellen White wrote: Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90) If a person has been set right with God, why isn't that enough? If simply ceasing to sin and resuming loving and obeying God is all that law and justice require, why, then, is death required in consequence of sin? Why was Jesus' substitutionary death required? Your idea makes it sound like sinning is not a problem so long as sinners eventually stop sinning. Therefore, people could, theoretically, sin in heaven or in the new earth with impunity so long as they eventually stop sinning. The wages of sin is not death under this scenario. It wouldn't matter if a sinner raped and killed a child so long as they stop sinning. As such there is no penalty, no punishment - only reward.
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Re: Did Jesus have to earn the right to pardon and save sinners?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#109420
03/05/09 03:34 PM
03/05/09 03:34 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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GC, do we add anything to the salvation Jesus wrought out for us when we consent and cooperate with God? I agree with you that our faith must work by love and purify us even as Jesus is pure but do we add to the work of Jesus as we experience genuine faith and works? Was His work incomplete and we must somehow add to it? Or, is Jesus' work the root of salvation and the good works we experience are the fruit of His work? Mike, If Jesus is all-powerful God, and if His sacrifice was sufficient for all people who ever lived on earth, then why will the majority be lost? Obviously, then, the sacrifice alone is insufficient to save us. We must help God, by working together with Him in surrendering our will to His and choosing to live for Him. Without this, we cannot be saved. The gift is sufficient. It is free. But free gifts are not actually "gifts" until they have been received. One can say that we need do nothing, for Christ has paid the debt, and be correct, or incorrect, depending on the nuance of interpretation. If we interpret the statement to mean that we need not pay anything, it is correct. If we say, however, that we can just sit idle and expect salvation to drop in our laps without any effort or request or seeking on our part, we are flat wrong. Can you tell me why, for example, the Bible says "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much"? If God makes us righteous, then why would He be so unfair as to thus qualify only a select few? It is only understood correctly when we realize that each of us has a choice in the matter, and that not all choose the path of righteousness. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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