If Sister White's theology is representative of the SDA Church then, Yes, it is the official position. However, there are members within the SDA Church, even here on MSDAOL, who do not agree with it. They believe we are born again morally defective, and that we gradually outgrow our imperfections after years of sinning and repenting until we eventually cease sinning. This is a fatal lie, and may very well be the reason why mankind is still wandering in the wilderness of sin, instead of fellowshipping with angels and loved ones in heaven.

Who is someone who believes what you're saying? I think you're arguing against a straw man.

Ask if people believe that when they are born again, they are brought into harmony with God and His law. Ask if they believe God will make them more and more like Christ if they do not resist His grace.

I'd like to know how many believe that to the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life, and that Christ restored the entire race of men to favor with God.

Tom, you are fairly new to this forum, so you are unaware of the opposition to this view of rebirth and perfection. Most of the members on this forum believe the idea you outlined awhile ago, that is, that we gradually become less and less defective as we become more and more like Jesus. This view, however, is unbiblical and detrimental. We cannot hide behind vague ideas, and assume we're all saying the same thing - when in reality we are not.

Maybe they disagree with it because of the way it's framed.

What I outlined before (I assume you're talking about the example I gave about overcoming the use of profanity) was in harmony with experience, don't you think? Or do you think that a person who has been accustomed to profane language is born again, and never has to deal with the problem? Or overcomes it in the twinkling of an eye?

The Spirit of Prophesy talks about the difficulty of training the mind. She says given time the mind will become accustomed to thinking in the right way. She doesn't say that it happens in a split second.

I believe when a person is born again he is in harmony with God and God's law. If he doesn't resist God's grace, he will be made more and more like Christ. I think this is easy to understand and in perfect harmony with inspiration.

Gradually outgrowing our defective traits of character after we are born again versus gradually confessing and crucifying them before we are born again are two totally opposite ways of looking at rebirth. Most people seem to believe the first idea, which I believe is unbiblical.

I agree that it takes time to train our mind to spontaneously resist temptation, to obey by default, instantly, and in most instances to do the right thing without much of a struggle. But even Jesus grew and matured from childhood to manhood. He began perfect (sinless) and He became perfect (mature). We begin as newborn babes in Christ and, as we walk in the Spirit and mind of the new man, we grow and mature, just like Jesus did. Unlike Jesus, however, we may make mistakes before we reach the point where we obey naturally and automatically, a life of continual obedience. Here's Peter's definition of a newborn babe:

1 Peter
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
2:3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious.

According to this description, a newborn babe in Christ is someone who, if they have tasted the grace of God, has laid aside all sinful traits of character. They are morally sinless. It is at this point that they begin growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit by drinking milk. Our sinful nature will continue to harass us with sinful thoughts and feelings, which we must resist like any other temptation, but we also need to understand the source and origin of them. They are not the result of unconquered or unknown defects, but rather they originate with our sinful nature.

DA 668
All true obedience comes from the heart. It was heart work with Christ. And if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us. {DA 668.3}

Mike,

I dont know where you get these ideas of yours from but when I read the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy I see many instances and quotations about the fact that after we are converted we will continue to sin... because our faith is to become stronger and stronger, our belief in the power of God to become more and more reliant upon Christ and less and less reliant upon ourselves.

Steps to Christ, page 64, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: The Test of Discipleship
"There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance."

Mike,

I dont know where you get these ideas of yours from but when I read the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy I see many instances and quotations about the fact that after we are converted we will continue to sin... because our faith is to become stronger and stronger, our belief in the power of God to become more and more reliant upon Christ and less and less reliant upon ourselves.

Steps to Christ, page 64, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: The Test of Discipleship
"There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance."

..and to be really straightforward... I would bet that if you claimed you have no sin, you would be wrong, and it would be a strong indication that you have not been beholding the perfection of Christ because if you were, you would be very humbled and realize you are far from perfection.

Steps to Christ, page 28,
"In the Saviour's life the principles of God's law--love to God and man--were perfectly exemplified. Benevolence, unselfish love, was the life of His soul. It is as we behold Him, as the light from our Saviour falls upon us, that we see the sinfulness of our own hearts.

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. Then we shall know that our own righteousness is indeed as filthy rags, and that the blood of Christ alone can cleanse us from the defilement of sin, and renew our hearts in His own likeness.

One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ.

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, "There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ."

I would hope that everyone would agree that we overcome sin by FAITH. Full perfect faith does not come in an instant... but rather as we behold Jesus and develop a true relationshp with Him it grows. And IF we overcome sin by faith and faith is a growing developing thing, then it would be wrong to say or to claim that we get converted one day and are perfect the same day.

Education, page 192, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Bible Teaching and Study
The great motive powers of the soul are faith, hope, and love; and it is to these that Bible study, rightly pursued, appeals. The outward beauty of the Bible, the beauty of imagery and expression, is but the setting, as it were, for its real treasure--the beauty of holiness. In its record of the men who walked with God, we may catch glimpses of His glory. In the One "altogether lovely" we behold Him, of whom all beauty of earth and heaven is but a dim reflection. "I, if I be lifted up," He said, "will draw all men unto Me." John 12:32. As the student of the Bible beholds the Redeemer, there is awakened in the soul the mysterious power of faith, adoration, and love. Upon the vision of Christ the gaze is fixed, and the beholder grows into the likeness of that which he adores. The words of the apostle Paul become the language of the soul: "I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: . . . that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings." Philippians 3:8-10.

Education, page 253, paragraph 4
Chapter Title: Faith and Prayer
Faith that enables us to receive God's gifts is itself a gift, of which some measure is imparted to every human being. It grows as exercised in appropriating the word of God. In order to strengthen faith, we must often bring it in contact with the word.


The Faith I Live By, page 323, paragraph 6
Chapter Title: Facing the Final Test
Do you want to change this order of things without delay? Would you choose to serve God? Then Jesus invites you to believe. . . . Grasp the hand of infinite power. Faith grows by exercise. Feed upon the promises; be content to rely on the simple promise of God's Word. Wait no longer in unbelief; for you are in danger of losing your souls.

In Heavenly Places, page 20, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: A Change of Heart
Conversion is a change of heart, a turning from unrighteousness to righteousness. Relying upon the merits of Christ, exercising true faith in Him, the repentant sinner receives pardon for sin. As he ceases to do evil and learns to do well, he grows in grace and in the knowledge of God. He sees that in order to follow Jesus he must separate from the world, and after counting the cost, he looks upon all as loss if he may but win Christ. He enlists in His army and bravely and cheerfully engages in the warfare, fighting against natural inclinations and selfish desires and bringing the will into subjection to the will of Christ. Daily he seeks the Lord for grace, and he is strengthened and helped. Self once reigned in his heart, and worldly pleasure was his delight. Now self is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. His life reveals the fruit of righteousness. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness. This is genuine conversion. . . .

In Heavenly Places, page 127, paragraph 3
Chapter Title: The Sure Anchor of Faith
Our faith increases by beholding Jesus, who is the center of all that is attractive and lovely. The more we contemplate the heavenly, the less we see desirable and attractive in the earthly. The more continually we fix the eye of faith on Christ, in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered, the more our faith grows; our hope strengthens, our love becomes more intense and fervent, with the clearness of our spiritual insight, and our spiritual intelligence increases. More and more we realize the positive claim of God upon us to purify ourselves from the customs and practices of a world that knows not God, nor Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

Lift Him Up, page 376, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Lift Him Up as Our Advocate and Infallible Judge
Through personal effort joined with the prayer of faith, the soul is trained. Day by day the character grows into the likeness of Christ; and finally, instead of being the sport of circumstances, instead of indulging selfishness and being carried away by light and trifling conversation, the man is master of his thoughts and words. It may cost a severe conflict to overcome habits which have been long indulged, but we may triumph through the grace of Christ. He invites us to learn of Him. He would have us practice self-control, and be perfect in character, working that which is well pleasing in His sight. "By their fruits ye shall know them" is His own standard of judging character.

Just one more ...

2 Peter 1:

1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


The Great Controversy, page 470, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Modern Revivals
The Scriptures plainly show that the work of sanctification is progressive. When in conversion the sinner finds peace with God through the blood of the atonement, the Christian life has but just begun. Now he is to "go on unto perfection;" to grow up "unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Says the apostle Paul: "This one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." Philippians 3:13, 14. And Peter sets before us the steps by which Bible sanctification is to be attained: "Giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. . . . If ye do these things, ye shall never fall." 2 Peter 1:5-10.

Claudia, below is a quote from my last post. I believe you will see that I agree with you, that it is possible, and even probable, that born again believers may slip in and out of known sin.

quote:

---

Unlike Jesus, however, we may make mistakes before we reach the point where we obey naturally and automatically, a life of continual obedience.

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But nowhere in the Bible does it say we will certainly sin after we have experienced the miracle of rebirth. The only verse that comes close is 1 John 2:1, 2, but even this says "if" not when. There are plenty of places where it says if we abide in Jesus we will not commit a known sin. That's the beauty of salvation. But it is painfully conditional. In order to resist temptation, we must remain connected to Jesus. But I like walking with Jesus. And so do you, that's obvious to me.