Why not? Because you have given me nothing to work with. You keep insisting that the time isn't right for you to publicly state your position plainly. The only thing you have said is that God took the risk of being misunderstood as approving of capital punishment. But you haven't said why He commanded Moses to kill sinners.


The tension between the ideal will of God and the permissive will of God is indeed baffling. His permissive will serves as a bridge to bring sinners back to His ideal will. However, in a world full of sin and death His ideal will is impossible, namely, for sin and death not to exist.

Similarly, the grace and goodness of God makes up for our obvious and insurmountable defects and deficiencies, which also serves as a bridge between His ideal and permissive will. No, I'm not saying we cannot stop sinning; instead, I'm saying we are so far from God's ideal will that His permissive will is necessary to balance things out.

Listen carefully. I'm not saying God permits us to sin. His permissive will does not allow us to sin. Therefore, whatever He permits His people to do that is contrary to His ideal will it in no way violates His law. For example, His permissive will allowed the Jews to have more than one wife but it in no way permitted them to sin, to break His law. The same is true of divorce, capital punishment, and having a king.

In the beginning God permitted incestuous marriages. But as the population increased God no longer permitted people to marry within their immediate family circle.

I'm sorry your mouth is hanging open. Around here, Colorado, it is not safe to go around with your mouth wide open - what with all the cattle ranches you might end up with a mouth full of flies. Ha! I crack myself up sometimes.

I don't see Jesus addressing the problem of full-cup sinners any differently in the OT and NT. His life and teachings, while here in the flesh, reflect everything we need to know about God punishing and killing full-cup sinners in the OT. For example, Jesus taught:

Matthew
8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew
10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew
22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Matthew
24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
24:49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,
24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew
25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strowed:
25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.
25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strowed:
25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.
25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You're the best person to answer this. Look at the quote I provided, and see what you disagree with. I can give you another one if you'd like, that deals more with the COI.



In the sense of the father/hunter analogy.

Please note the underlined portion above. That's the task to go about. You don't need me for this.



Which means what? (underlined portion)



Ok. I've got my microphone going, headphones on.



What do you mean by this? You must mean it's not OK with Him if we sin. Clearly His permissive will allows us to sin in the sense that we can sin if we choose to do so.



Meaning what? Does this mean something different than I would say? Here's what I would say. God did not want them to divorce. This has always been contrary to His ideal will (or law; they're synonymous). However, because of the hardness of their heart, He permitted it.



This is a terrible analogy. Why? Because this has nothing to do with morality.

I'm glad you cleared that up. For some reason I thought you thought Jesus acted differently in the OT than the NT.


What does that passage mean to you. Assuming that ekballo should not be translated as shut out, leave, or bring forth, whom is doing the casting, what is this outer darkness? How does it relate to what Jesus does or does not do in the OT and NT?

Jesus did "act" differently in the NT. For example, He didn't command anyone to kill sinners. Nor did He employ the forces of nature to kill sinners. True, He taught these things, but He didn't demonstrate them.


If we interpret this passage in light of all the other ones I posted above, the message is loud and clear - Jesus will use fire to punish and kill the wicked at the end of time. In one sense their names will be cast out of the Lamb's book of life. In another sense, they will be kept out of the New Jerusalem because of their unfitness. They will, of course, attempt to take it by force, but they will be arrested by the glory of Jesus and the Great White Throne. Being outside the City is being in outer darkness. While in this place of outer darkness they will suffer mental agony (weeping) and physical pain (gnashing of teeth). Although this passage makes it seem like they will be in this state forever, they will, however, eventually die as the other passages make clear.

Jesus taught the reverse of this. For example:



Over and over Christ affirmed the reverse of what you're suggesting. The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son. The Son judges no one, but your words will judge you. The Son of Man came not to destroy man's lives but to save them. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world would be saved by Him.

Not only was Jesus non-violent, He was anti-violent. It's hard to imagine how someone could consider the life of Christ and come to the conclusion that He taught that we should kill sinners, or that God employs the forces of nature to kill.

The whole concept of killer God in the life and teachings of Christ is as contrary an idea to reality as one could have. One might as well assert that Christ taught a concept of God that encouraged sexual immorality or dishonesty.

Something else which comes to mind on this is that the SOP tells us that what gave power to Jesus' words is that He lived what He taught. Now Christ supposedly taught one thing but did another, which contradicts this principle. This hypocrisy would have undermined His teachings.

Yes, Jesus also taught the reverse, but in doing so He wasn't contradicting the reverse.


One need only to read the Bible to learn the truth about it. The passages I posted above make it abundantly clearly that Jesus taught the truth about sin and judgment and punishment and death.


Tom, how do you interpret what Jesus taught about sin and judgment and punishment and death? Using only His words (which I posted above on this thread) please prove to me that Jesus taught your view of sin and death, namely, that sinners will suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness when they are exposed to the undiluted firelight of God's glory and presence. Again, use only His words, that is, the words in red in the Gospels.

PS - I have reposted the passages here:

Matthew
8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew
10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew
22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.

Matthew
24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
24:49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,
24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew
25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strowed:
25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, [there] thou hast [that is] thine.
25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strowed:
25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.
25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew
25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
25:42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.
25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.