Does this mean, "Do you think obeying Him only because He said so constitutes slavish obedience?



Given your hypothesis, wouldn't we already understand something about why we're doing what we're doing? Remember what we're discussing is the issue of obeying God without *any* understanding of why we're doing what we're doing. Not without "understanding everything about it," but "nothing about it." So let's be clear about that.

From "Steps to Christ"



It seems clear to me this answers your question. No, God never does this, is the answer.



MM, please quit doing this. You're brighter than this.

You asked me to "post one place ..." so I respond with a passage. Now you ask, "Are you telling me this is the only record we have of Jesus calling them slaves?"

Of course I'm not telling you this. Why would you conclude such a thing from a conversation that goes like this:

M:Post one place which says blah.
T:Ok, here's a place which says blah.
M:Are you telling me this is the only place that says "blah"?



This is an illogical question. There's only one word in the language in which the NT was written, not two. Translators have used different words to express the meaning of the one word, but there's only one word in the NT, not two. If you're asking if this one Greek word can express the meaning of two English words, the answer is yes.

This brings up a rather interesting question. In the original language, there was only one word. So when Jesus spoke of "servant" this could mean either "slave" or "servant." In English, "slave" has a much more negative connotation than "servant." So we would tend to give the most positive meaning to the words of Jesus, and interpret His radical statement that He was a servant to a more exalted status, to take some of the edge off what He said. We like to do this to protect ourselves.

I hadn't thought about this before, until your asking this, but given how radical Jesus was in saying such things, I think "slave of slaves" captures what He said more accurately. Just consider what He did when He washed His disciples feet.

On the other hand, there's an implication of voluntary service which may be implied. If we understand "slave" to mean "involuntary service" then this is another matter. That wouldn't apply at all.



This is besides the point. The point in John 15:15 is that Jesus calls us "not servants (or slaves), but friends" on the basis of having revealed things regarding God to us.



No, this is besides the point too. Jesus called these people "friend" because He loved them.



Regarding myself, I wouldn't wish to make any claims, but let the Lord take care of that. I prefer to speak of Him.

Regarding the others, who referred to themselves as servants, this isn't something which should be done lightly. However, all of those you named proved their devotion to Christ, many being martyrs, all giving all they had for Christ, which is the spirit of servanthood, the same spirit God has, who has given all He has for us.



No.

You keep jumping around, MM. We're jumping all over the place, dealing with different concepts.

Let's make this simple. When Jesus said, "I no longer call you servants but friends ..." do you not think He was wishing to communicate something positive? If so, what was that positive thing He was wishing to communicate? Why do you think this was contingent upon His having told them all things He had heard from the Father?

I'll rephrase the question. Do you think obeying Him based solely on a "Thus saith the Lord" constitutes slavish obedience? For example, Go sacrifice your son.


My question doesn't concern faith and belief. It has to do with commands and obedience. I'll rephrase the question. Do you think God has ever commanded anyone to obey Him without telling them the reasons why? Would such obedience be slavish?


Tom, the passage you posted is what prompted me to ask the question. Why would you repost the same passage that prompted the question in the first place? It may or may not mean Jesus used to call them servants. Asking for a passage where Jesus actually called them servants is a reasonable request. Since there is no record of Jesus ever calling them servants, I am led to conclude that "Henceforth I call you not servants" is not an indication that He used to call them servants. The fact He is speaking about what He will not do in the future, namely, call them servants, simply means they need not worry about it.


Wow! Is it ever tricky trying to ask you a question. You wrote, "The Greek had one word for both English words." From this comment I assumed you were talking about one Greek word and two English words. So naturally I asked, "Do this mean you think the two different words mean the same thing in the NT?" This question led you to assume I was saying there were two different Greek words. I'll try to be more clear in the future.

Wouldn't this apply to the disciples as well? I mean, wasn't their service and devotion to Jesus voluntary? If so, how, then, can we say they were servants before they were friends?


Please answer the question anyhow. Thank you.


Does it mean He doesn't love them if He calls them servant?


Are you a friend of Jesus?


There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it.


First of all, Jesus Himself said He didn't tell them everything He knew. Secondly, they didn't understand what He was trying to tell them. Lastly, there is no indication their status changed from servant to friend. They went on referring to themselves as the servants of the Lord. Not once did they ever refer to themselves as the friend of Jesus. Thus, you seem to be making something of John 15:15 that the disciples and apostles of Jesus didn't.

I don't think it's God's desire that we obey Him with no clue as to why.



So you don't think obedience has anything to do with faith and belief?!



I don't think God desires obedience based on ignorance. If we already have an understanding on some point, God wouldn't have to repeat it. An obedience without any understanding of what one is doing would be a slavish obedience.

I don't think it's God's desire that we obey Him with no clue as to why.



So you don't think obedience has anything to do with faith and belief?!



I don't think God desires obedience based on ignorance. If we already have an understanding on some point, God wouldn't have to repeat it. An obedience without any understanding of what one is doing would be a slavish obedience.



Since Jesus said "no longer" did He call them servants, "but" he called them friends, this rules out the possibility that He did not call them servants.



I can think of at least one other place of the top of my head.



What? Clearly Jesus point in saying He would no longer call them servants but friends because He had told them all things He had heard from His Father was communicating something which involved:

a.No longer being called servants.
b.Being called friends.
c.Being informed of things.



Your question isn't very clearly phrased. After reading this, I think what you meant to ask is if I think the Greek word when translated by the two different words meant the same thing in the original both times it was translated differently. Is this what you're meaning? If so, it would depend on the case. If you want to post two specific instances, we could discuss it.

Does trusting Him count as a clue? For example, "Go and sacrifice your son." The only clue is trusting God knows what He's doing.


In a root and fruit way, yes. IOW, in the same way faith and works are two sides of the same coin, so too, obeying God based solely on trust is not slavish.


Did Abraham render slavish obedience when he obeyed God to sacrifice his son? Please elaborate.

Again, there is no record of Jesus calling slaves or servants while He was here. Perhaps it is referring to the OT when He called them servants regularly.


Please don't post it until after I repeatedly beg you to.


I am keying in on the word "henceforth". But I just found out that it can mean "no longer" which implies He used to call them servants.


The point is in the Greek there aren't two separate words for slave (involuntary service) and servant (voluntary service). So, how does the Greek language differentiate between the two?

PS - Tom, don't forget 109609. Thank you.

MM, the point is very simple. Jesus said:



He says:

1.Henceforth I call you not servants ...but I have called you friends.

and gives as the reason:

2. (servant)for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth ... (friend)for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

There's no need to go on and on trying to parse "friend" and "servant" and if Jesus said "friend" here or "servant" there or ever called His disciples "servants" or any of that. It's a very simply point; 1 and 2 above.

What do you think this means? What don't we discuss this?