It depends upon how you define a sin. Is drinking or smoking a sin on the list? If so, I think that's a possible one.



No. It matters to God. Sin hurts us, and God doesn't like that.



Doing things isn't what keeps us out of heaven. Hardening our hearts against the Holy Spirit can do this though. Much depends on the light one has. Do you disagree?



I understand the concept of writing things down and not writing things down. This is about the most ludicrous thing I've heard. Of course, Jesus didn't write anything down at all, so I don't know why you'd include His name.

Why would someone like Paul not write down something as important as the meaning of the death of Christ, given they understood it? Paul wrote down all this other stuff; why would he skip this? I don't understand why you think this is rational.



Yes, I know this. Why do you limit this to the last six commandments? As I recall, you believe a person can ignorantly live in sin. Isn't that right?



There is so much evidence against this it's frightening. I'm tempted to ask if you don't know any actual people.



No way! The revelation of sin never resulted in the rebirth of a single soul! It's the revelation of God's character and love which leads to conversion. As Paul says, "Don't you know that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" (Rom. 2:4)



I didn't say this, of course. I said your idea that God can reveal all the sinful habits a person has at once is based on a superficial view of sin.

You only speak of breaking rules. Sin involves more than this. It involves matters of the heart, more subtle things. First a person is born again, and learns of the grosser sins. As a person progresses, the Lord brings up more subtle things.

Are you aware of any sin in your life MM? Are there any things you perceive you need to work on? If not, that's not a good sign!

It would be interesting to learn the truth about what they believe. Those who believe Jesus was significantly different than us would have a hard time defending it.


The first classification above describes Luther to a “tee”. BTW, both classes represent genuinely born again believers. If you look closely you’ll see what I mean (check out the first three words). I didn’t clarify in the description above but both classes would be admitted to heaven if they died. Only the second class can be translated alive.


Yes. Plus, it includes all the born again believers nowadays who continue to ignorantly practice some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth, who have not yet learned how to live in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded.


Again, you are assuming that they continue to ignorantly practice some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth, that they not yet learned how to live in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Or, do you believe people in the second group (described above) also ignorantly practice some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth? Please elaborate.


"The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." If I take this at face value there is no reason for me to assume she obviously means they will continue to ignorantly practice some of the sins they cultivated prior to experiencing the miracle of rebirth. So, no, I don’t think it is obvious she intended for us to assume that’s what she meant. I am certain of this.

For me to read "something more into what she wrote than she intended" (your words) I would have to change the wording. For example, to make it reflect what you're suggesting I would have to change it to read like this:

Some of the sins that were practiced before conversion, will be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." The sins they continue to ignorantly practice after they are reborn will be gradually revealed to them. As their sins of ignorance are revealed, they will confess and crucify them. Eventually they will reach the point where they are living in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded.


Yes. Luther will be in heaven. Again, both groups of believers will be in heaven. But Ellen wasn’t describing both groups in SD 300. She was describing the second group.


Again, Luther was part of the first group. That’s why I prefer my two classifications of born again believers. It avoids this kind of misunderstanding.

Ok, here's the first classification:



So you're saying that Luther was a born again believer who continued to ignorantly practice some of the sinful habits he had cultivated prior to being reborn. Is that correct?



So why have you been arguing against this idea?

I don't understand what you're taking issue with. It seems like you're doing an about face here, but perhaps you've just not communicated your thought clearly before now, I don't know. But it sure looks like you're saying exactly the same thing I've been saying all along.

The list got lost. I’ll repost it here:


Even if you believe smoking and drinking are excluded in the lists above, you still haven’t answered my question. My question pertains to the sins blacklisted above. Again, my question is - Do you think it is possible for someone to ignorantly practice one or more of the sins listed above after they experience the miracle of rebirth? Please elaborate.

BTW, do you think smoking and drinking are excluded in the lists above?


I agree. Now, back to the first question - Why didn't God enlighten them? Why were they allowed to experience rebirth while ignorantly practicing such sins?


Apparently doing the things blacklisted in the passages I posted above will bar the gates of heaven. “All these evil things come from within, and defile the man . . . They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God . . . They which commit such things are worthy of death.” Do you agree they say doing such things will keep them out of heaven?


I didn’t say Jesus wrote anything down. Reread what I wrote and I’m sure you’ll agree with me. We can discuss whether or not Paul clearly explained it on the thread dedicated to that question.


1) Because no one is born with an instinctive knowledge of the first four commandments. They have to be learned through Bible study and prayer. 2) Yes. This applies to the first class of believers I described above on this thread.


I disagree.


I’ll let our good friend address this point:


Do you agree with me that the passages above support what I said above?

BTW, do you agree with this statement – “The difference during the process of conversion, before they experience rebirth, is that the Holy Spirit reveals their cultivated sinful habits in light of the cross”?


1. Whether or not a person is in the first or second classification I named above depends on whether or not they have learned how to live in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?

2. Do you agree with me that God does not “reveal all the sinful habits a person has at once”?

3. Do you agree with me that “seeing their cultivated sinful habits in light of the cross does not leave them with a shallow view of the sinfulness of sin”?


Do you think a person can sin in the “more subtle matters of the heart” without breaking the law of God? Also, do you think the blacklisted sins named in the passages posted above exclude the “more subtle matters of the heart”?


Do you think a person is born again first and then learns how to crucify the “grosser sins”? And, what constitutes a “more subtle” sin?


Oh yes, I am very aware of my weakness and imperfections. Do you think being aware of ones weaknesses and imperfections means they are guilty of sinning? Also, what do you mean by, “Are you aware of any sin in your life”? Are you asking if I am willfully cultivating a particular sinful habit? Or, are you asking if I am willfully indulging some subtle form of selfishness like pride of opinion?

Let me say this - “Whosever abideth in him sinneth not.” When I am actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus, the Bible says that I am pure “even as he is pure,” that I am “righteous even as He is righteous”. It also says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” It goes on to say, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

Do these descriptions of believers abiding in Jesus obviously imply that they are ignorantly practicing some of the sins they cultivated prior to rebirth? I don’t think so. Do you?

Yes.


I haven't been arguing against the idea. I've been attempting to explain that the SD 300 quote applies exclusively to the second class of believers. Do you agree?

Please address the following points you overlooked above:

If they're done deliberately, sure. If ignorantly, no.



I was asking you that.



Let's consider a specific case. The question of Luther's drinking would fit here. Why didn't God enlighten Luther in regards to drinking? What do you think? Perhaps God felt there were other things more important. Luther was already dealing with quite a lot.



I don't believe they're addressing things done ignorantly. Also it's not so much that doing these things keeps one out of heaven as those who do these things demonstrate they have rebelled against God. Iow, those who do these things will not be in heaven. But not because they do these things. They do these things for the same reason they won't be in heaven, which is they have chosen not to respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.



You said the things weren't written down in the Bible. Jesus didn't write anything down in the Bible.

Let's clarify about Jesus. You're asserting that Jesus understood the meaning of His death, and now you're saying He taught it, but what He taught is not in Scripture. I've understood you correctly, right?



Ok, I'm just making the point that this is what you're asserting, not why.



Not according to Romans 1. Also the SOP addresses this. Things like how nature reveals God, and the law being written on every fiber of our being.



You're contradicting yourself. If a person knows instinctively that any violation of the last six commandments is wrong, they can't be living in sin ignorantly.



It's the goodness of God that leads to repentance.



EGW agrees:



What brings conviction of sin is the revelation of God's character and love. What you cited brings this out as well:





I assume you mean without the following sentence included, since what we're discussing is my disagreement of this statement with that sentence included. I don't really know what you're saying here, so I can't comment. The difference between what?

On the 1., 2., 3., I'll wait for your response to my other post to discuss this, since it's being discussed there as well. Similarly for the following points and questions. I understood you were against the idea that after being converted people sin less and less as their sins are revealed to them, but now it appears you are agreeing with this idea, so I'm awaiting clarification.

I don’t understand your answer. Please rephrase it.


My answer is, No. What’s yours?


I agree. But what about his more offensive sins of ignorance? Why do you think God overlooked them? I am assuming some of his sins of ignorance were more offensive. Do you know of any that were?


I’m having a hard time reconciling your interpretation in light of the following plainly worded statements: “They which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God . . . They which commit such things are worthy of death.”

Also, do you think born again believers can do such things without realizing they are sinning and still have the type of mind and character that would enable them to enjoy heaven? If so, please name one of the blacklisted sins as example.


Again, I never said Jesus wrote it down. Please quote where I said He did.

And, yes, I am saying what Jesus clearly taught about it wasn’t clearly recorded in the Bible. It was taken for granted. The observance of the Sabbath on the seventh-day is another thing that was taken for granted in the NT. It is not clearly reinforced or reiterated like other commandments were.


On this we clearly disagree.


They can in relation to the fourth commandment.


Please include what I said.


Before people embark upon the process of conversion they are instinctively aware of what is morally right and wrong as defined by the last six commandments (or, according to, as defined by all ten commandments). But after they embark upon the process of conversion they see their sins for the time in light of the cross. This makes a huge difference. Do you agree?


I still believe people do not gradually outgrow a known sinful habit after they experience rebirth. I believe they crucify their old man habits of sin the moment they experience the miracle of rebirth. There are the two classification of born again believers at this point.

PS - Please finish addressing the parts you left out in the two posts above. Thank you.

I'm responding to your last question. It's possible for someone to ignorantly do something on the list after being reborn.



I was thinking they could be seen as a part of the list, which is why I mentioned them.



According the SOP, the most offensive sins are those of pride and selfishness. These are also very difficult to detect by outsiders. So we can be very off target in our interpretation of the character of others.

Luther appeared in some ways to be obstinate and have an unchariable view of some. However it is the very traits, which we might characterize as defects, which are the other side the coin which made Luther such a force for good. So I wouldn't dare criticize him as I believe he was greatly used by God.



Just read in the word "deliberately." People who ignorantly sin won't be judged for such, unless they take purposeful actions to be ignorant. It seems to me this is the same thing you're saying.



Given smoking and drinking are not excluded from the list, I'll name those.



I didn't say you did. You said nobody wrote it down. I said Jesus didn't write anything down, so that would eliminate Him as a possibility in terms of writing something down right off that bat.



Why would the death of Christ be taken for granted? That makes no sense.

You're saying the death of Christ was taken for granted for almost 2,000 years, never clearly explained until Ellen White. You don't see the problem with this?



How is this comparable with Christ's death? Even holy angels were confused about certain things until the cross. Surely men didn't know it well enough to "take it for granted."



You don't agree that the law is written on every fiber of our being? We discussed this in the past, and I recall you believed this, and believed it included the first four commandments.



I'm pointing out a contradiction you hold in relation to the seventh commandment. You claim on the one hand that none of the last 6 commandments can be broken ignorantly. But then you say people can ignorantly live in sin. That's a contradiction.



You mean what you said above? You said:



I'm disagreeing with your conclusion that the revelation of cultivated sinful habits is what results in rebirth. It's the goodness of God which leads to repentance. It's a knowledge of God's love and character that results in rebirth.



There's no need to limit this to the last six commandments. I don't know why you make a distinction between the first four commandments and the last six in this regard. Especially the first. People know there is a God, and it is wrong to have other Gods before Him. Even cultures which are polytheistic have a concept of a God above the other gods.

I agree in the process of conversion people see their sins in the light of the cross, and this is something they would not have done before conversion.



You believe the ignorantly practice known sins, right? Gradually they become aware of things they were previously ignorant, and then give them up. Doesn't that make sense?



Could you please repost these? (i.e. the parts I left out). Sorry for the extra work.

Here’s a compilation of the blacklisted sins:


This blacklist of sins is compiled from Mark, Romans, and Galatians. Do you think Jesus or Paul imagined a born again believe ignorantly practicing one of these sins?


Of the 45 sins blacklisted above where do you see smoking and drinking fitting in?


Do you view his obstinacy as one of his more offensive sins? And, do you view his uncharitable views of some as one of his more offensive sins? Also, do you think his drinking was one of the 45 sins blacklisted above? If so, which one?


I’m not comfortable adding to the word of God. Do you know of an inspired passage that inserts the words like “deliberately” in contexts like this, that is, a context in which specific sins are said to make people worthy of death and ineligible to inherit the kingdom of God?


Of the 45 sins blacklisted above which ones are smoking and drinking?


Yes, I see a problem with it. And, I disagree with it. I believe the oral tradition has written down here and there since the death of Jesus (can’t name anyone off the top of my head). Ellen also wrote it down.


It’s another example of an important truth that was taken for granted. And, I disagree with you regarding the angels being confused or not secure before the cross.


Yes, people are born with a yearning to worship God, but they do not know instinctively about the one true God. They have to learn about Him through Bible study and prayer. We both agree the Sabbath is unique.


Yes, it is a contradiction, but one I do not believe. I do not believe people can live together unlawfully without feeling ashamed. True, they can harden their hearts until they no longer feel guilty.


Ellen wrote, “The first step in reconciliation to God is the conviction of sin. . . The sinner must be made to feel that he is a transgressor.” In response to this I wrote, “This revelation can result in rebirth.” Notice I didn’t will result in rebirth. Neither can you say, “It’s a knowledge of God's love and character that results in rebirth.”


You’ll notice that I included your view above.


Do you agree with me that seeing their sins for the first time in light of the cross makes a huge difference in how they view their sins? If so, what do think accounts for it?


I believe there are two classifications of born again believers. I articulated this above. Here it is again:

1. Born again believers who continue to ignorantly practice some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth, who have not yet learned how to live in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

2. Born again believers who are living in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded, who are imitating His sinless example.

I believe the only real difference between these two groups has to do with those doctrines that are unique to the SDA church, namely, diet and health and dress reform. Of course, in some cases, Sabbath-keeping, hellfire, the state of the dead, and the investigative judgment are other notable differences. The sinful habits related to ignorance of these doctrines are practiced until the truth is learned.

I do not believe anyone in either group can be ignorant of the 45 blacklisted sins named above (this is based on the assumption that everybody in both groups have experienced rebirth in God’s appointed way). Do you agree?

1. Whether or not a person is in the first or second classification I named above depends on whether or not they have learned how to live in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Do you agree?

2. Do you agree with me that God does not “reveal all the sinful habits a person has at once”?

3. Do you agree with me that “seeing their cultivated sinful habits in light of the cross does not leave them with a shallow view of the sinfulness of sin”?


Do you think a person can sin in the “more subtle matters of the heart” without breaking the law of God? Also, do you think the blacklisted sins named in the passages posted above exclude the “more subtle matters of the heart”?


Do you think a person is born again first and then learns how to crucify the “grosser sins”? And, what constitutes a “more subtle” sin?


Oh yes, I am very aware of my weakness and imperfections. Do you think being aware of ones weaknesses and imperfections means they are guilty of sinning? Also, what do you mean by, “Are you aware of any sin in your life”? Are you asking if I am willfully cultivating a particular sinful habit? Or, are you asking if I am willfully indulging some subtle form of selfishness like pride of opinion?

Let me say this - “Whosever abideth in him sinneth not.” When I am actively and aggressively abiding in Jesus, the Bible says that I am pure “even as he is pure,” that I am “righteous even as He is righteous”. It also says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” It goes on to say, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

Do these descriptions of believers abiding in Jesus obviously imply that they are ignorantly practicing some of the sins they cultivated prior to rebirth? I don’t think so. Do you?


Do you agree?


Again, you are assuming that they continue to ignorantly practice some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth, that they not yet learned how to live in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded. Or, do you believe people in the second group (described above) also ignorantly practice some of the sinful habits they cultivated prior to rebirth? Please elaborate.


"The sins that were practiced before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering."

If I take this at face value there is no reason for me to assume she obviously means they will continue to ignorantly practice some of the sins they cultivated prior to experiencing the miracle of rebirth. So, no, I don’t think it is obvious she intended for us to assume that’s what she meant. I am certain of this.

For me to read "something more into what she wrote than she intended" (your words) I would have to change the wording. For example, to make it reflect what you're suggesting I would have to change it to read like this:

Some of the sins that were practiced before conversion, will be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on "kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering." The sins they continue to ignorantly practice after they are reborn will be gradually revealed to them. As their sins of ignorance are revealed, they will confess and crucify them. Eventually they will reach the point where they are living in perfect harmony with everything Jesus commanded.

Do you agree this would be "reading something more into what she wrote than she intended"?


Yes. Luther will be in heaven. Again, both groups of believers will be in heaven. But Ellen wasn’t describing both groups in SD 300. She was describing the second group.

Do you agree?