Here's a quickie:

What did God command Moses to do with those who were guilty of adultery? They should be stoned to death. Does the punishment end there? No, they are to die the second death. The stoning system has been done away, but the penalty for transgressing God's law is not done away. If the transgressor does not heartily repent, he will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. {TSB 131.3}

There is some hand waiving and equivocation in that statement that is not helping your argument at all.

The details of GC 672-673 are so devastating to your argument you can not even bring yourself to quote them or to admit that they are literally true.

The "principles PLUS assumptions -- to yield conclusions" that you offer are much easier for me to deal with -- because all I have to do is toss out your assumptions and conclusions and then just stick with the principles actually stated in the text. ( hence my complete review of both DA 764 and GC 535 along with my affirmations that God is not arbitrary or unjust etc.)

ALL of those concepts of God fit perfectly into the "details" since the Love of God AND the Justice of God is seen in what the text calls His "unmingled wrath" (unmingled with mercy) poured out on the wicked.

You keep arguing that I first have to explain various arguments NOT in the text. I keep arguing that you have to explain away details IN the text.



A point often asserted - but never proven "from the text".

And you keep referring to my "quote" of GC 672-673 as "my ideas".

Again -- very instructive that the mere quote of it is so disturbing to your assumptions applied to principles.



"Doing the things" that we SEE in GC672-673 is not a form of "ME suggesting" it is form of "ME READING"

You repeatedly expose your argument on this point. The mere existence of those GC 672-673 can not be tolerated in your argument so you continually have to reposition the "inconvenient details" of GC 672-673 as "My suggestions" or as "Things I am suggesting" instead of "DETAILS We are ALL READING".




I keep giving you the chance to EXEGETE your view - showing that IN The text of GC 672-673 the idea of ROCKS on fire is NOT there and the idea that the SAME fire that destroys the wicked is NOT burning the rubbish on the earth (EW 294) etc (detail after detail listed)...

All you do is "ignore the details" as if the very WORDS of the text are "my suggestions".

And who is going to be convinced by that kind of transparent and up front "spin"???

in Christ,

Bob

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Bob, here are some questions:

1.Where does the text say the wicked will suffer because they are being burned alive by fire for many hours or many days?
2.How does the judgment, according to the viewpoint you are presenting, have God acting according to the principles of kindness, mercy and love?
3.How does the judgment, according to the viewpoint you are presenting, present God as loving His enemies?
4.How is it you think God is capable of burning people alive for many hours or many days?
5.Why do you think God will manufacture this punishment when DA 764 specifically says the death of the wicked is not due to an arbitrary (or manufactured) act of punishment on the part of God, but is rather the result of their own choice?
6.How is it that if God left Satan to reap the result of his sin, he would have perished?
7.How is it that the same thing which imparts life to the righteous slays the wicked?

Tom, please consider the following paragraph:

1. What did God command Moses to do with those who were guilty of adultery? They should be stoned to death. {TSB 131.3}

2. Does the punishment end there? No, they are to die the second death. {TSB 131.3}

3. The stoning system has been done away, but the penalty for transgressing God's law is not done away. {TSB 131.3}

4. If the transgressor does not heartily repent, he will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. {TSB 131.3}

This passage makes it clear that God commanded Moses to stone sinners to death. It also makes clear the relationship between punishment and death, namely, that it is "inflicted". That is, it doesn't happen naturally. "In the retribution inflicted upon the ungrateful husbandmen was portrayed the doom of those who should put Christ to death." {DA 596.3} "The punishment inflicted on human beings will in every case be proportionate to the dishonor they have brought on God." {LDE 217.3}

Notice Ellen's use of the words "inflict" and "inflicted":

God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

God reads the purposes and intents of the hearts, and tries the motives of the children of men. His signal, visible displeasure may not be manifested as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira, yet in the end the punishment will in no case be lighter than that which was inflicted upon them. In trying to deceive men, they were lying to God. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." {CS 334.3}

The most fearful threatening ever addressed to mortals is contained in the third angel's message. That must be a terrible sin which calls down the wrath of God unmingled with mercy. Men are not to be left in darkness concerning this important matter; the warning against this sin is to be given to the world before the visitation of God's judgments, that all may know why they are to be inflicted, and have opportunity to escape them. {GC 449.2}

God had declared that if at that time they refused to hear His voice, He would inflict upon them fearful retribution. They did refuse to hear, and He pronounced His final judgments upon Judah, and He would visit with special wrath the man who had proudly lifted himself up against the Almighty. {PK 435.3} The lightest punishment that a merciful God could inflict upon so rebellious a people was submission to the rule of Babylon, but if they warred against this decree of servitude they were to feel the full vigor of His chastisement. {PK 443.2}

Had Eli dealt justly with his wicked sons, they would have been rejected from the priestly office and punished with death. Dreading thus to bring public disgrace and condemnation upon them, he sustained them in the most sacred positions of trust. He still permitted them to mingle their corruption with the holy service of God and to inflict upon the cause of truth an injury which years could not efface. But when the judge of Israel neglected his work, God took the matter in hand. . . He incurred the Lord's displeasure by not reproving sin and executing justice upon the sinner. {PP 577, 578}

The Lord commanded Jeremiah to stand in the court of the Lord's house and speak unto all the people of Judah who came there to worship, those things which He would give him to speak, diminishing not a word, that they might hearken and turn from their evil ways. Then God would repent of the punishment which He had purposed to inflict upon them because of their wickedness. {4T 165.2}

How does "the glory of God . . . destroy sin"?

Was Jesus’ character less holy or righteous when divinity wasn’t flashing through humanity? Why didn’t His character cause sinners to fear for their lives?


So, do you think Jesus’ character was incapable of causing sinners to fear for their lives? Doesn’t this imply Jesus’ character wasn’t as holy and righteous and pure as God’s?


I take it you believe no such passage exists. If so, then I agree.


The problem is, Tom, those very same passages agree with what I’m saying. How can they also support your view? Our views are diametrically opposed.


You didn’t answer the question.


Where does the following insight fit in? “To sin, wherever found, ‘our God is a consuming fire.’ Heb. 12:29. In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them. . . The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked.”

This doesn’t address my comment.


Why do you think they thought they were ready for him to die before the cross?


No I don’t.


Do you think God ever withdrew His protection and permitted sinners to be burned alive? For example, do you think God withdrew His protection and allowed fire to burn Nadab and Abihu alive? If not, how and why were they burned alive?


Do you think God withdraws His protection and permits nature or evil angels or evil men to cause sinners to suffer and die?


Would such results (i.e. the flood, the fires of Sodom, the death of the first born, the fiery death of Nadab and Abihu, etc) happen if God didn’t hide His face? And, are such results regulated by God so as not to exceed His established limits?


What actually happened? What part did God play? Did do anything or stop doing anything that resulted in what actually happened?


Do you think things will play out this way naturally, that God will not have to ensure it doesn’t play out some other way?

I'm guessing the fire engulfing the earth will feel hot to the sinners. Do you think the following fire is literal? "Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. . . The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire."


Do you agree

I simply asked you to explain why you think it’s one or the other. I agree with you that it is literal.


The word “consumed” in this sentence corresponds to the word “destroyed” in the very next sentence. The “fire” in this passage corresponds to the “fire” in the following passage:

“Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire.”

Do you think this fire is symbolic?


See comments above. You seem to think “quickly destroyed” means their sin and guilt caused them to rapidly die of mental anguish.


You seem to think “punished” means they suffered the natural cause and consequence relationship between sin and suffering and death.


You seem to think God will supernaturally shield them from the fire and flames engulfing the earth.


Thank you for answering my questions.