Let me see if the "details" you are referencing are actually IN those texts..

hmm let me see... It is here some place.


As an exercise -- lets count the details mentioned in the TWO PAGES of text on the Lake of Fire event that we find in GC 672-673 -- that are not mentioned at all in DA 764.

===========================

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin.


Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}
================================================

1. "The indignation of the Lord" and "His fury" on all nations
2. "Weapons concealed in the DEPTHS of the earth" to be used in this event
3. "Burning and fuel of fire"
4. "He hath delivered them to the slaughter"
5. "Upon the wicked HE shall rain burning coals of fire and brimstone and horrible tempest"
6. "Devouring flames burst FROM every yawning chasm" - "the very ROCKS are on fire"
7. "Elements melt with fervent heat" - the Earth AND the WORKS there-in burned up
8. "Earth's SURFACE one MOLTEN mass - a vast seething Lake of FIRE"
9. "Some are destroyed in a moment" - "Others SUFFER for many days" for "ALL are PUNISHED according to their DEEDS"
10. And beyond all that Satan is to "LIVE and SUFFER ON"


======================================================================

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}


Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but
295
also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.


==============================================================

Bonus:
We also have a definition for "where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" as meaning something "quite different" from "Ghenna worms that eat dead bodies"

---------------------------------

Give me a minute to look that over.

in Christ,

Bob

Wow - no mention at all in those text of "unmingled wrath of God gives life to the righteous". But we DO have the "unmingled wrath of God" "His indignation" and "His fury" mentioned there -- did you see it?

Did you notice that it caused "the very rocks to be on fire"??

Did you notice that it is in the form of "Fire and Brimstone"??



Did you notice that "fire and brimtsone' do not make the righteous alive? In fact the righteous are SAFELY NOT IN that "fire and brimstone" -- according to the "details" of the chapter.


Let's stop and look at just how NOT IN the Lake of Fire (getting life) the saints are...

(Hint this exercise must be done to show that you are mixing two DIFFERENT contexts in your method of totally ignoring exegesis)



instead of the wild idea that the saints are IN the lake of fire and brimstone "getting LIFE" from what destroys the wicked - and burns the rocks -- and reforms the earth... what we see is that God is a SHIELD to the saints AGAINST all of that harm -- while at the same time this same God is EXPOSING the wicked to it.


in Christ,

Bob

err.. um... I simply read this and accepted it for what it says.

===============================================================================

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}


Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but
295
also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!" {EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

================================================================



"The viewpoint I am presenting"???

Now when I say "I read this" I do not mean "I wrote this". We agree on that point right?

in Christ,

Bob

The quote is not "if God had just let Satan reap the result of his sin Satan would have perished -- so God burned hin alive for many days in the lake of fire to spare Satan that fate".

The quote is not "If God had not burned Satan alive in the lake of fire -- Satan would have lived forever".

The FIRST death - would be sufferred by all EVEN if God did not visit them with an immediate second death at the moment that they sinned. We can see that ... err.. umm every day.

in Christ,

Bob

Let's say for example I ask a million questions about day 4 of Creation week when God creates the Sun and moon.

Does that change the fact that on day 4 God created the Sun and the moon?

Can I put off ACCEPTING the blazingly simple statement of Genesis 1 - until I as God can make my OWN Sun and moon in a single day and finally know all about how to do it????

It seems that scripture starts us off on PAGE ONE with the idea that we believe God EVEN when the subject has elements beyond our present grasp.

I think Maxwell got too hung up on trying to first BE GOD to simply allow himself to ACCEPT what God had said. Alas -- the chair was too big for him -- the task too great. The end result is that he ignores more of God's Word than he ever understood "as God".

in Christ,

Bob

Regarding #109947, I don't understand your post. You quoted my questions, but as far as I can tell, didn't address them.

Regarding #109948, I found this incoherent. For example:



The saints are in the lake of fire and brimstone? This post was filled with odd ideas like this.



Your tone reads as very angry, full of sarcasm. This doesn't bode well for your viewpoint.

Regarding 1, the text doesn't say the wicked are burned alive by literal fire. This is something you're inferring.

Regarding 4, in order to infer that God would burn the wicked alive to make them pay for their sin, you'd already have to have an image or conception of God that would allow you to infer such a thing. What I'm asking is, why you have such a conception of God.



You didn't address the questions here. Not at all.

Regarding your questions, you have a viewpoint which is rather unusual. If it were simply a matter of reading the text, and coming to the conclusions you have, everyone would agree with you, right? Instead, you stand alone, the only one on this entire forum, as far as I can tell, who is able to come to the conclusions you have regarding Ellen White's teachings here.

Now I'm not arguing that majority opinion makes things right, but simply pointing out that yes, indeed, you do have a viewpoint, a minority one, and it's not based simply on reading the text but on inferring things from the text, just as everybody else who have a viewpoint does.

Would you please address the questions I asked above?



More sarcasm! Why do you think this is a good thing, Bob?

The quote is not dealing with the first death, but the second. Satan doesn't die the first death, just the second. The quote says that had God left Satan to reap the full result of his sin, he would have perished, but had God done so, this would have not been understood by onlooking angels, who did not understand that death is the inevitable result of sin.

What I'm asking you is, if the reason Satan dies in the end is because God kills him, why does this talk about God *leaving* Satan to suffer the full result of his sin? God could hardly be *leaving* Satan to perish if He is the one *causing* Him to perish.

Huh??

What did I miss?

I was about to say that you and TeresaQ are the only ones on this forum that appear to hold to that GC 672-673 details not actually true position.

How can our view of the basic facts be soooo different??

What am I missing?




And the proof of that statement is going to be found in actually "showing your work" of comparing the DETAILS found IN GC 672-673 with whatever I have said that you now claim is NOT actually IN The text!

(Wondering if that due diligence in showing the substance in your claim above will be posted)

But you have to admit - - I HAVE been asking that you do that very thing a few zillion times so far.

in Christ,

Bob

Good illustration of the point I just made.

Obviously there are a couple of possible answers for your question - but the more basic point is why even position it the way you have given that "on page 1" we learned our lesson.

in Christ,

Bob

Why do you think God is capable of doing the things you ascribe to Him? Simply saying "this is what the text says," is not a sufficient answer, as others read the text differently than you do.

There's something in your experience or perception of things which allows you to believe it's possible that God will burn people alive for hours or days at a time, supernaturally keeping them alive, so they can suffer excruciating agony to pay for their sins, a view which would cause most people to recoil in horror.

Yet you are able to conceive God in these terms. Why?



You're missing the specific aspect of your viewpoint that I'm dealing with, which is your idea that God will engulf the wicked in flames, supernaturally keeping them alive so they can suffer longer, in order to make them pay for their sins. MM used to believe this, but no longer does. You were the only two with this idea. Now you're the only one.

I've mentioned several times that I'm not aware of a single SDA publication which espouses this view, and have asked you several times if you could cite one.

My point here is that if different people read the same passage and come to different conclusions, it's evident that there are different possible ways of reading the passage. Thus it's unreasonable to assert that you're simply reading the passage. Everybody is reading the passage, but you are coming to a different conclusion than others. It's not a problem that you see things differently than others, but you should be aware of the fact that you are not simply reading the passage in doing so. You are inferring things, like everyone else, inferences which others do not hold. You should be able to recognize that you are inferring things, and be able to defend why you infer them the way you do.



The text does not say the wicked pay for their sins by being burned alive for many days or many hours. You are inferring this.

That Ellen White could have such an idea doesn't square with the facts. It doesn't fit with what she wrote elsewhere.



Is this the lesson you are referring to?



So is what you're saying that we should believe that God will burn the wicked alive for many hours or days even though we don't understand how this fits with things like this:



Is this the point you're saying I'm illustrating well? Or is it something else?

I don't understand that response. I see nothing in my post to indicate anger of any kind -- possibly a little humor - but no anger.

My "err... umm.." is an indicator to convey that I am a bit hesitant about stating the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob