In what way?

This is a very shallow way of looking at it, IMO. Even wrong.



It's very important we know God's will, but God's will is not something one can itemize on a list. This is the type of "obedience" the Pharisees rendered. True obedience comes from the heart.

If we study the life of Christ, and look for how He acted, how He treated people, what we taught and revealed regarding God's character, don't you think God would be happy with that?



Then they're not living in sin ignorantly, which you also said.



I disagree with the whole premise that what it means to be like Jesus can be encapsulated in a list.



You yourself don't agree with this for most people. You have two groups of people, Group 1 and Group 2. There are far more people in Group 1 than Group 2, and what you're writing above only applies to people in Group 2. You believe people in Group 1 do sin ignorantly, and give up their sins as they learn the truth. This is what you've said, isn't it?



I think what is essential is learning God's character, which takes some time. Also, I base my conclusion on the description of events in "The Great Controversy" and other places. Plus we have the actual experience of 1888 in front of us. The message God gave to prepare the harvest started at the end of 1888. It looks like things came to a head in around 1893. There's nothing specific about this, but just looking at how events played out, that's my guess. At some point the rejection of the message reached a point to where the plans for Christ's Second Coming had to be scrapped. We are told Christ was very disappointed He could not come. This wasn't until the early 1900's though, so, if anything, my estimate might be short.

Of course, there's the question of when to start the clock on something like this. For the 1888 message, we have a specific time period, but that might not be so this time around. So I would guess a couple of years from some seminal event which would be analogous to the giving of the message God sent in 1888.

Since it's been about a week since I wrote this, it's hard to remember. I was probably writing in reference to your two groups. You make these blanket statements, but then when it comes down to specifics, they're actually qualified to applying to your Group 2, which is a small group compared to Group 1 people. It would seem more natural to make blanket statements about the much larger group, and then qualify those statements as necessary for the second group.

It sounds like you think I have been consistent in my comments regarding Group 2. I have also consistently asked you to post passages that describe rebirth the way you see it, namely, people continue to ignorantly practice some of the sins they cultivated prior to rebirth. So far you have not honored this request. Please do so.

What is “wrong” with viewing the law as forbidding specific things?


Lists are very important to God. All throughout the Bible He has made it clear what to do and what not to do, how to be and how not to be. I’m surprised you are fighting against this point. God is very focused on behavior, how people think, speak, and act. Even Jesus spoke about it often. Why do you think believers continue to ignorantly practice some of the sins Jesus blacklisted? And, why do you think Jesus took the time to blacklist them?


Please hear me, Tom. I made it very clear what I mean by the expression “living in sin”. I have never said people can “shack up” ignorantly. I have always said people will initially feel wrong about it. Yes, after awhile they harden their hearts and no longer feel bad about it. Do you understand what I’m saying and what I’m not saying? I understand some people use the expression “living in sin” to mean something entirely different. For example, some people use it to mean ignorantly breaking the Sabbath. Technically that would constitute “living in sin”.


The beliefs I posted above [you omitted them here] are definitions of what it means to be like Jesus. In what way do you think they fall short of defining what it means to be like Jesus?


Sanctification has nothing to do with discovering sins of ignorance and overcoming them. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience. It has to do with maturing daily in the fruits of the Spirit. This is true of both groups. The process of discovering sins of ignorance involves justification – not sanctification.


Thank you for answering my first question. Quotes would have been nice. But you didn’t address the other two questions: Why do you think it takes so long to live in harmony with the truth? What do you think hinders them?

I have more questions, too. Which truths do you think must be experienced in order for believers to reach the point where they could be translated alive? And, do you think people have reached that point within the last 100 years? If so, please name a few.

This is shown by the Pharisees.



The Pharisees were great at lists.

Jesus' greatest sermon was probably the Sermon on the Mount. What does it consist of?



What you said is that people could ignorantly live in sin. That surprised me when you said it, because you had been saying that no one could ignorantly break the last six commandments. So I immediately brought this to your attention.



In the way I said. I disagree with the whole premise that what it means to be like Jesus can be encapsulated in a list.



The people in question are already justified.



I think you're thinking of this the wrong way. The issue isn't being a long time to live in harmony with the truth or being hindered in doing so, but in learning the truth, which is primarily that truth about God. The study of God's character is not something trivial; it takes some time to learn.



Truths involving God's character. Regarding the question about being ready for translation, please don't ask me any questions like this. I'm not going to sit in judgment on others.

Tom, do you agree that 8 out of 10 commandments begin with "Thou shalt not"? If so, do you agree it pin points what not to do, that it prohibits specific actions? If not, what do you think it means? Do have a problem with God blacklisting specific actions?

Also, do you think the ten commandments overlook what you refer to as the "more subtle sins"?

Why do you think believers continue to ignorantly practice some of the sins Jesus blacklisted?

And, why do you think Jesus took the time to blacklist them?

Do you think the sermon on the mount focuses only on positive actions?

Or, do you think Jesus also included actions not to do?


I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying the fundamental beliefs I posted above represent lists? I believe they define and describe what it means to be like Jesus. Do you agree? If not, please take the time to prove your assertion they fail to do so by pointing out how they fail. Also, it would be extremely helpful if you would provide an example you believe correctly defines and describes what it means to be like Jesus. Also explain why it does a better job than the fundamental beliefs I posted above. Thank you.


True. But they are not completely sanctified. Justification accommodates past sins pardoned and sins of ignorance. Sanctification does not accommodate sins of ignorance. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience – not a lifelong process of gradually discovering and overcoming sins of ignorance. Sanctification has to do with maturing daily in the fruits of the Spirit.


You didn’t provide quotes which substantiate your assertion that it takes believers “a couple of years” to learn how to live in harmony with the righteous fruits and attributes of God’s character. Ellen wrote this about it:

When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4} All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

Do you think these insights are implying that it takes “a couple of years” to learn how to live in harmony with the righteous fruits and attributes of God’s character? If so, please explain why you think so. What hinders them from living in harmony with the fruits of the Spirit the moment God implants them?


If believers are living in harmony with the fruits of the Spirit and the will of God as defined in the law - do you think they qualify for translation, that is, do you think if they were living during the final crisis they would be able to experience what it takes to be numbered among the 144,000? Or, do you think they still lack something essential? If so, what?

Also, do you think this pre-tribulation state of sinlessness has been achieved by believers in the past? Or, do you think such sinlessness is something only the 144,000 can achieve? If so, why? Please keep in mind I realize there are things unique to the 144,000 that nobody else will experience, namely, the IJ of the living and JTOT. So, I’m not asking you if believers who will be resurrected when Jesus arrives have experienced these things. Instead, I’m merely asking if you think it is possible to reach the sinless state necessary to qualify to go on and experience those things.

BTW, do you think the things that the 144,000 will experience that no one will experience will result in them achieving a state of sinlessness not available to the rest of us? IOW, will those experiences enable them to overcome sins that we cannot?

It sounds like you think I have been consistent in my comments regarding Group 2. I have also consistently asked you to post passages that describe rebirth the way you see it, namely, people continue to ignorantly practice some of the sins they cultivated prior to rebirth. So far you have not honored this request. Please do so.

But what I believe regarding Group 1 is no different than what you believe. So why don't you quote something?

I think the meaning of the law was taught by Christ. Especially the Sermon on the Mount explains its meaning.



My "problem" is with your interpretation of things, which, IMO, is superficial.



Not at all, which is my point. The "more subtle things" cannot be encapsulated in the lists you're referring to, at least not in a helpful way. One could have a list which has the item "unChristlike" on it, which would cover everything, but how does this get you any closer to knowing God's will than you were before?



Which ones? Why do you think I think this?



Is this what He did? I don't think so.



Are you thinking the Sermon on the Mount is dealing only or primarily with actions? If so, I think you've missed the point.