I just wrote this out recently.

Tom, please repost it here. Cut and paste.

I couldn't find what I posted recently, but here's something I posted in the past:

It seems to me that if you start with DA 764 you get a good indication of what is happening, and why:


Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Mal. 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezek. 28:6-19; Ps. 37:10; Obadiah 16.

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.


The first paragraph are typical passages from the Bible describing the destruction of the wicked. She quotes passages dealing with the fire from God which destroys Satan and his followers.

The second paragraph explains the first, and brings out some principles:
1.The wicked are not destroyed by an arbitrary (i.e. by individual discretion) act of power on the part of God.
2.The wicked reap what they have sown.
3.They die because they cut themself off from God, who alone is the source of life.
4.The place themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire.
5.The glory of God who is love destroys them.
6.At first the angels didn't understand that the destruction of the wicked would be accomplished by God's glory.
7.Had Satan and his followers earlier been left to reap the full result of sin, they would have died.
8.It would not have been apparent to the onlookders that their death was due to the inevitable results of sin.

Now let's consider two more facts. First of all, the SOP tells us that no truth can be understood apart from the cross. Secondly, the setting of this chapter is to explain the significance of Christ's death. She speaks of a number of things, ending with the destruction of the wicked. Something about Christ's death enables us to understand the destruction of the wicked, which was not understandable before His death.

If the wicked die because God kills them, then I cannot see how any of the above makes sense. It just doesn't fit. Her entire argument falls apart. It would not be the case that Christ's death demonstrated that death is the inevitable result of sin. In fact, death *wouldn't* be the inevitable result of sin, if the only reason the wicked die is because God zaps them with fire.

The only mention of fire in the explanation of the wicked being destroyed by fire is "By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire." Now this makes sense! Everything comes together.

God's glory, or character, is the fire which killed the wicked, and which caused the death of Christ. Without the death of Christ, this wouldn't have been clear to the angels. But after seeing Christ die, they could understand it.

Now let's look at the description of Christ's death from the previous chapter:

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. (DA 753)

We see the following:
1.The wrath of God against sin, which is defined as "the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity", filled Christ's soul with consternation.
2.Christ cannot see the Father's face.
3.Christ felt that He would be eternally lost.
4.Christ felt the anguish the wicked will feel when he dies.
5.The sense of sin broke Christ's heart.

It seems to me evident that sin caused Christ's death, and this is the fire referred to above. Christ referred to this in Ps. 22:14 in saying "My heart melts like wax." (In Hebrew thought, the heart represents the center of a man's emotion and thought; where he does his deepest thinking.)

Consider the following quote:

"I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance," said John; "but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire." Matt. 3:11, R. V., margin. The prophet Isaiah had declared that the Lord would cleanse His people from their iniquities "by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." The word of the Lord to Israel was, "I will turn My hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin." Isa. 4:4; 1:25. To sin, wherever found, "our God is a consuming fire." (DA 108)

This is presenting the same thought. God is a consuming fire to sin. This consuming fire causes mental agony to those who have sin in their life. We see that all throught Scripture, in many places. This consuming fire caused the mental agony which caused Christ's death. Christ suffered the death of the wicked, but the fire involved is not the fire we think of, like one you can light with a match, but the consuming fire which is God when He comes in contact with sin.

A mind filled with sin cannot accept the revelation of God's goodness and love. That's what's happening. The revelation of God's goodness (i.e. the light of His glory) is a terrible thing to one who has given himself to evil. This impact is described here:

Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. (GC 543, 544)

It seems to me that everything fits when looked at from this perspective. OTOH, if we view the fire that causes the suffering of the wicked to be fire such as we normally think of it, rather than God's being a consuming fire wherever sin is found, then we have a scenario where God must supernaturally keep the wicked alive so that He can torture them. This doesn't fit either with the description of DA 764, nor does it agree with what we know of God's character. God doesn't toture people who disagree with Him. He leaves people free to choose what they will, but warns us of the result of our choice. If we think God is saying to us, "Do what I tell you, or I will torture you, and then kill you" we have, IMO, a very mistaken view of both what will happen and God's character.

Now some might object against the use of the word "torture," but torture means "the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish." I don't believe God tortures anyone.

The difference between the true view of the destruction of the wicked and the typical Evangelical view is more profound than whether God tortures the wicked by fire for all eternity or just for some number of hours or days.

One more think I was going to ask, and that is, if the fire that will destroy the wicked is God's glory, as described by EGW, how would we expect this to be presented in a vision? Wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable for God to represent it as fire coming down from heaven? Why are we insistent on this one thing being fire as we know it when virturally every other thing in Revelation and Early Writings are symbolic?

Assuming it's not fire as we know it, how can God communicate to us about fire which is different than we know it? The only reference to fire is fire as we know it. That doesn't mean there isn't some other type of fire which could be causing the destruction described in Revelation and Early Writings; but we have no frame of reference by which to understand it. God is constrained to communicate to us in language that we can relate to.

Tom, thank you for taking the time to cut and paste the info above. However, I'm still not sure how you would answer the following questions:

1. What role does sin play in causing sinners to suffer and die?

2. What role does the glory of God play in causing sinners to suffer and die?

PS - Please include the following description as the basis of your belief.


I am beginning to sense you think the fire described above must be interpreted in one of the following two ways: 1) Symbolic of the mental anguish sinners feel, or 2) Literal fire that happens after sinners suffer and die.

Which is it? Please elaborate. Thank you.

Do you read what I posted? The post covers these questions.



Literal fire purifies the earth, which includes the wicked (after they're dead). The fire may be symbolic of agape. Ty Gibson has commented on this. I wonder if I can find this. Nope, can't find it. Do you have his books "See With New Eyes" and "Shades of Grace"? He talks about this in one of those.

Ellen White (you don't like "EGW," right? -- I mean as a way of referencing her, of course) says "the glory of Him who is love will destroy them," so we see a connection there. That is, in vision, fire destroys the wicked, and then DA describes the destruction as being due to the glory of He who is love, so fire = love.

How does God’s character kill sinners? For example, God is characteristically kind and loving and patient and merciful – how do these traits and attributes cause sinners to suffer and die? Do they cause a toxic gas to leak from the pores of God?

Also, why didn’t Jesus’ character kill sinners? Was His character less pure, less holy, less toxic than God’s?


Is sin a combustible substance that can be burned? Is the character of God flammable? Why didn’t Jesus’ character cause sinners to "burn up"?


Please post the Bible and SOP passages you believe describe literal burning up the bodies of the dead.


Why didn’t the love of Jesus cause sinners to "burn up" and die? Was His love less pure, less holy, less flammable than God’s?

From "The Desire of Ages"







From the same passage:





Toxic? You're thinking God's character is toxic? It's sin that's toxic!



The wicked left the presence of Jesus Christ. In the judgment, there won't be anywhere for them to go.



"Is the character of God flammable?" What kind of question is that? I don't think one can hope to understand this issue if it is thought about in these terms?



They're the ones you know.



"Less flammable?" What kind of question is this?

From DA 764:



Do you think this is an issue of flammability?

Tom, quoting all the familiar passages from DA addresses the what but not the how. My question pertains to how the loving traits and attributes of God's character causes sinners to suffer and die. What physical mechanics are at work? For example, please explain to me how you think "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" causes sinners to suffer and die.

"Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence." Are you suggesting this insight explains how and why the loving traits and attributes of Jesus' character caused sinners to suffer and die?

"Christ suffered the death of the wicked, but the fire involved is not the fire we think of, like one you can light with a match, but the consuming fire which is God when He comes in contact with sin." How will the loving traits and attributes of God's character cause sinners to suffer and die?

Why didn't it cause sinners to suffer and die when Jesus was here in the flesh?

Why doesn't it cause Satan to suffer and die when he's in the presence of God?

How does God prevent His character from killing sinners?

How does He prevent sin from killing sinners?

PS - Please refrain from quoting the passages that say it will happen. Please post passages that address my questions. Thank you.

Tom, I have no idea which passages you believe describe literal fire burning sinners to ashes after they are dead. Please post two or three of them. Thank you.

PS - The one I know of you say isn't literal. Listen:

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}