What causes sinners to suffer in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness and then die at the end of time?

The following passages make it clear to me that God, not sin, will punish and destroy sinners at the end of time.

He, the sin-bearer, endures judicial punishment for iniquity and becomes sin itself for man. {SR 225.1}

God's forgiveness is not merely a judicial act by which He sets us free from condemnation. It is not only forgiveness for sin but reclaiming from sin. It is the outflow of redeeming love that transforms the heart. David had the true conception of forgiveness when he prayed, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me." Ps. 51:10. {FLB 129.2}

Jesus, our great Exemplar, in His life and death taught the strictest obedience. He died, the just for the unjust, the innocent for the guilty, that the honor of God's law might be preserved and yet man not utterly perish. Sin is the transgression of the law. If the sin of Adam brought such inexpressible wretchedness, requiring the sacrifice of God's dear Son, what will be the punishment of those, who, seeing the light of truth, set at nought the fourth commandment of the Lord? {4T 251.2}

What did God command Moses to do with those who were guilty of adultery? They should be stoned to death. Does the punishment end there? No, they are to die the second death. The stoning system has been done away, but the penalty for transgressing God's law is not done away. If the transgressor does not heartily repent, he will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. {TSB 131.3}

We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death. {FLB 84.7}

To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Eze. 33:11. . . . Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Ex. 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {FLB 338.5}

After God has done all that could be done to save men, if they still show by their lives that they slight offered mercy, death will be their portion; and it will be a dreadful death, for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross. They will then realize what they have lost--eternal life and the immortal inheritance. {FLB 338.6}

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}

In the class here described are included those who in their stubborn impenitence comfort themselves with the assurance that there is to be no punishment for the sinner; that all mankind, it matters not how corrupt, are to be exalted to heaven, to become as the angels of God. But still more emphatically are those making a covenant with death and an agreement with hell, who renounce the truths which Heaven has provided as a defense for the righteous in the day of trouble, and accept the refuge of lies offered by Satan in its stead--the delusive pretensions of spiritualism. {GC 560.3}

But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}

Transgression is disobedience to the commands of God. Had these commands always been obeyed, there would have been no sin. The penalty of transgression is always death. Christ averted the immediate execution of the death sentence by giving His life for man. . . . Justice requires that men shall have light, and it also requires that he who refuses to walk in the Heaven-given light, the giving of which cost the death of the Son of God, must receive punishment. It is a principle of justice that the guilt of the sinner shall be proportionate to the knowledge given, but not used, or used in a wrong way. God expects human beings to walk in the light, to testify before angels and before men that they acknowledge Christ as the great propitiation for sin and that they respect His sacrifice as their greatest blessing. . . . {HP 153.3}

Since Satan is the originator of sin, the direct instigator of all the sins that caused the death of the Son of God, justice demands that Satan shall suffer the final punishment. Christ's work for the redemption of men and the purification of the universe from sin will be closed by the removal of sin from the heavenly sanctuary and the placing of these sins upon Satan, who will bear the final penalty. So in the typical service, the yearly round of ministration closed with the purification of the sanctuary, and the confessing of the sins on the head of the scapegoat. {PP 358.2}

In our day there are many who reject the creation Sabbath as a Jewish institution and urge that if it is to be kept, the penalty of death must be inflicted for its violation; but we see that blasphemy received the same punishment as did Sabbathbreaking. Shall we therefore conclude that the third commandment also is to be set aside as applicable only to the Jews? Yet the argument drawn from the death penalty applies to the third, the fifth, and indeed to nearly all the ten precepts, equally with the fourth. Though God may not now punish the transgression of His law with temporal penalties, yet His word declares that the wages of sin is death; and in the final execution of the judgment it will be found that death is the portion of those who violate His sacred precepts. {PP 409.2}

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked, emboldens men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. While He does not delight in vengeance, He will execute judgment upon the transgressors of His law. He is forced to do this, to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from utter depravity and ruin. In order to save some He must cut off those who have become hardened in sin. "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. And the very fact of His reluctance to execute justice testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {PP 628.1}

Though there would be found none in Israel to execute the sentence of death upon the anointed of the Lord, David trembled, lest, guilty and unforgiven, he should be cut down by the swift judgment of God. But the message was sent him by the prophet, "The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." Yet justice must be maintained. The sentence of death was transferred from David to the child of his sin. Thus the king was given opportunity for repentance; while to him the suffering and death of the child, as a part of his punishment, was far more bitter than his own death could have been. The prophet said, "Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die." {PP 722.2}

To save the race from eternal death, the Son of God volunteered to bear the punishment of disobedience. Only by the humiliation of the Prince of heaven could the dishonor be removed, justice be satisfied, and man be restored to that which he had forfeited by disobedience. There was no other way. For an angel to come to this earth, to pass over the ground where Adam stumbled and fell, would not have sufficed. This could not have removed one stain of sin, or brought to man one hour of probation. {1SM 308.2}

The Son of God pities fallen man. He knows that the law of his Father is as unchanging as himself. He can only see one way of escape for the transgressor. He offers himself to his Father as a sacrifice for man, to take their guilt and punishment upon himself, and redeem them from death by dying in their place, and thus pay the ransom. The Father consents to give his dearly beloved Son to save the fallen race; and through his merits and intercession promises to receive man again into his favor, and to restore holiness to as many as should be willing to accept the atonement thus mercifully offered, and obey his law. For the sake of his dear Son the Father forbears a while the execution of death, and to Christ he commits the fallen race. {3SG 46.3}

When God pardons the sinner, remits the punishment he deserves, and treats him as though he had not sinned, He receives him into divine favor, and justifies him through the merits of Christ's righteousness. The sinner can be justified only through faith in the atonement made through God's dear Son, who became a sacrifice for the sins of the guilty world. No one can be justified by any works of his own. He can be delivered from the guilt of sin, from the condemnation of the law, from the penalty of transgression, only by virtue of the suffering, death, and resurrection of Christ. Faith is the only condition upon which justification can be obtained, and faith includes not only belief but trust. . . . {TMK 110.2}

Sin is disloyalty to God, and [is] deserving of punishment. . . Christ was manifest in our world to take away transgression and sin, and to substitute for the covering of fig leaves the pure robes of His righteousness. The law of God stands vindicated by the suffering and death of the only begotten Son of the infinite God. {UL 378.5}

The transgression of God's law in a single instance, in the smallest particular, is sin. And the nonexecution of the penalty of that sin would be a crime in the divine administration. God is a judge, the Avenger of justice, which is the habitation and the foundation of His throne. He cannot dispense with His law; He cannot do away with its smallest item in order to meet and pardon sin. The rectitude, justice, and moral excellence of the law must be maintained and vindicated before the heavenly universe and the worlds unfallen.--Manuscript 145, Dec. 30, 1897, "Notes of Work." {UL 378.6}

The following passages make it clear to me that God, not sin, will punish and destroy sinners at the end of time.



How does this passage make it clear for you that sinners die because of God's punishing them as opposed to their own actions?

Here is the quote line by line:

1. "We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin." True. God does not enjoy punishing sinners. Nor is waiting around hoping they sin so He can justify punishing them.

2. "The sinner brings punishment upon himself." True. It is not unjustifiably inflicted.

3. "His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result." True. Nothing is arbitrary about the punishment God inflicts upon sinners.

4. "Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again." True. There is a cause and consequence relationship between sinning and character and the momentum to sin again.

5. "By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." True. The sure result also includes a first death, the resurrection, judgment, punishment, and the second death.

PS - I cannot study this passage and arrive at hard fast conclusions without also consulting the many passages posted above. Taken together as a whole the picture is clear to me.

PPS - If, as you say, withdrawing His protection and permitting sinners to succumb to the natural, unimpeded consequences of sin constitutes "punishment" what, then, do you call it when God prevents sinners from succumbing to the natural, unimpeded consequences of sin - Reward?

What sense does this make? If the wicked die not as the inevitable result of sin, but because of an action God unilaterally takes upon them, what do you call it when God is not doing this to them? Reward?

I don't see how you can harmonize this with:



I guess, what you think is this:



So, because the wicked separate themselves from God, God inflicts them with punishment. So you think, apparently, if God did not inflict them, the sure result of sin would not be ruin and death.

In this case, sin is innocuous. It doesn't result, of itself, in ruin or death, but only due to an arbitrary action on the part of God ("arbitrary" meaning not "capricious," but "manufactured," as Bob says, or "inflicted" to use your word).

So the problem is not with the wicked separating themselves with God, of itself, but of the vengeance God takes upon them by inflicting them with punishment. (I'm not wishing to misrepresent your view; it is accurate to say that you believe that God takes vengeance upon the wicked, isn't it? You've said similar things in the past.)

Mercy. But, please keep in mind, there is more to the GC than the mere salvation of sinners. The vindication of God's character and kingdom are at stake. He is working hard to demonstrate the value and validity of His law and government. Mercy and justice are two attributes of God's character and kingdom that never would have been manifested had not FMAs sinned. Mercy does not cancel justice. Jesus had to die because law and justice demand death for sin. His death magnified and honored the law by submitting to and upholding its holy and just demands. He was not at liberty to set aside its demands. To do so would have jeopardized the security of the universe.

This thread is addressing the second death and what causes it. That sin isn't what causes sinners to suffer and die at the end of time is evident from the fact God must inflict punishment which results in suffering and death.


Of course the word "inflicted" is the word Ellen used. I just borrowed it. And, of course, there is nothing innocuous about sin. Just look to the cross.


The type of vengeance God experiences toward sin and sinners is divine. It does not in the least resemble the vengeance sinners experience toward one another. The vengeance of God is retributive justice and judicial punishment.

Tom, how do you answer the question which serves as title of this thread? Please summarize what you believe in your own words, that is, do not quote anything from the Bible or the SOP and then say that's what you believe.

1. What role does sin play in causing sinners to suffer and die?

2. What role does the glory of God play in causing sinners to suffer and die?

Regarding #110216, I don't understand your question to me.



That sin is what causes death is evident by the following:

"And sin, when it is finished, brings forth death."
"The sting of death is sin."
"Sin pays its wages: death."
"The inevitable result of sin is death."



The underlined part brings out that sin is "deadly in its effects." It is likened to the poison of a serpent's bite. You wouldn't say God inflicts those who are bitten by a serpent, would you? Isn't their punishment the poison?



It seems to me that EGW doesn't use "inflicted" as you are. Specifically, she seems to use it in a negative sense. But "inflicted" is fine for the purposes I was using it, which was to point out that the destruction of the wicked is not something God inflicts upon them, but comes as the result of their own actions.

Regarding sin being innocuous, as you see things, it is. It's the punishment that is not innocuous.



Ok, so it looks like I described your position accurately.