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Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: asygo] #110370
03/22/09 02:36 PM
03/22/09 02:36 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Here is an excerpt from M. L. Andreasen's chapter, The Last Generation: "There are few Christians who have not gained the mastery over some sin that formerly greatly annoyed them and overcame them. Many a man who has been a slave to the tobacco habit has gained the victory over the habit and rejoices in his victory. Tobacco has ceased to be a temptation. It attracts him no more. He has the victory. On that point he is sanctified. As he has been victorious over one besetment, so he is to become victorious over every sin. When the work is completed, when he has gained the victory over pride, ambition, love of the world-over all evil-he is ready for translation."

His description of victory/sanctification includes a point in the Christian's experience when each temptation "has ceased to be a temptation. It attracts him no more."

Arnold are you saying that we need to have gained victory over all sins before Jesus can come?

Do you think that the great multitude describe in Revelation at the end time will have time to have gained victory over all sins? I believe some of those people will hear the gospel for the first time.

If you think this way, then I think you mis-understood the gospel message and need to re-read Rom 5-8 and Galatian. However, my impression is that you don't and there must be a link that I didn't get in the statement above.


Blessings
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110371
03/22/09 05:05 PM
03/22/09 05:05 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Then she says that "like every child of Adam, He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity." This sounds like genetically Christ's human nature was the same as every other human being. As we receive our human nature, so Christ received His, by means of genes and chromosomes.

Again, this quote must be read in the light of others. Another quote says:

“He had not taken on Him even the nature of angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin” (Ms 57, 1890).

Of course it can't be said that the genetic process which gave origin to Christ's human nature was in every particular like ours, since He didn't have a human father. The Bible says He partook of our flesh and blood, not that He was born with our spiritual deformity.

Quote:
Or do you think merely having the temptation is a sin?

Two things. First, a sinful suggestion is different from a sinful desire. Second, if you desire something evil, the desire itself is evil.

1 Cor. 10:6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.

Quote:
Sin is only conceived when an act of the will takes place, acceding to the temptation.

When you acceed to the temptation, this is no longer a desire, but a decision. The desire precedes the decision, but the sin may begin in it.
The desire may or may not be wrong in itself. Take as an example the first temptation of Christ. Every temptation must have an appeal, so it is based on a need (legitimate or not). Christ may have thought, "I would like to eat," or "I need to eat," however He concluded, "but not at that cost." Now take Eve's case. She didn't need to eat the fruit; but the devil created a need in her which was not legitimate, and so there was something wrong in the desire itself.



Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Elle] #110374
03/22/09 09:10 PM
03/22/09 09:10 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
A zygote requires two cells from two individuals. Typically a man and a woman. The egg of a woman alone is incomplete. Let's assume God took all of Mary's genetics, then by taking one cell, you create a "Clone". That is what cloning is all about-- an exact replica. Jesus was not a clone of Mary. First he was male and second, I'm sure He was different than Mary in many ways, since the Bible never said that Jesus was like Mary. So His other half of His genetics came from God. Which will make Him totally different from you and me and anyone else on earth including Adam.


Why do you think this makes Him different? I'm not arguing that He wasn't different; of course He was, as He was God. Only of Him can it be said, "He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature." The rest of us don't have a sinless nature upon which to put a sinful one; we just have a sinful one.

But why do you think that the fact that the other half of His genetics comes from God makes Him different? Especially in the face of the assertion that "like every child of God, He accepted the workings of the great law of heredity"?

Quote:
There's a difference between being tempted and being Rebellious. I brought out the point that the essence of sin and the nature of man is Rebellion to God. Is there Bible text or SOP that says that Jesus was Rebellious?


Assuming Christ took our sinful nature, why would you think Jesus was rebellious? He was *tempted* in all points as we are. But He never yielded to temptation. So why should He be rebellious?

He said He came not to do His own will, *but* the will of His Father. Why was there any difference, if not for our fallen nature which He assumed? Because of that fallen nature, Christ was *tempted* to rebel, but He never did rebel. He always denied Himself. As Paul put it, he "pleased not Himself."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110376
03/22/09 09:57 PM
03/22/09 09:57 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Regarding your response, Rosangela, is it your argument that Ellen White had a concept of original sin? (or something similar) And "taint of sin" was similar to the Catholic concept of a taint being passed from parent to child? If so, then we have the problem of Mary passing her taint. Is this the idea?

It seems that Ellen White's statement "like every child of Adam, He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity," which would preclude the idea that God was doing something special for Christ to exempt Him of such a supposed taint.

Here's a couple of other statements regarding "taint of sin"

Quote:
What a sight was this for Heaven to look upon? Christ, who knew not the least taint of sin or defilement, took our nature in its deteriorated condition. (1SM 253.)


Quote:
Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. (2SM 925)


Rather than somehow mitigating DA 49, her assertion regarding Christ's being born without a taint of sin looks not to have anything to do with the human nature He took.

In addition to considering other EGW texts, a good practice would be to consider how she was understood by her contemporaries, as well as that the church as a whole believed. For example, in meeting the Holy Flesh ideas, they rejected the argument that Christ didn't take our sinful nature, and met the ideas in this way. Donnel's ideas look to be like yours:

Quote:
Where did Adam stand before his fall?. . . He was holy. Now, in order to pass over the same ground that Adam passed over, Christ would most assuredly have to begin just where Adam began! . . . . Now, we know that his divinity was holy, and if his humanity was holy, then we do know that that thing which was born of the virgin Mary was in every sense a holy thing, and did not possess the tendency to sin—


So the theory was that these tendencies to sin had to be removed, which is the same thing I hear you saying. To meet this, Haskell read the following:

Quote:
Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking his nature might overcome. Made ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh,’ he lived a sinless life. Now by his divinity he lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by his humanity he reaches us.(Desire of Ages)

This is fallen humanity with all its hereditary inclinations. He who was as spotless while on earth as when in heaven took our nature, that he might lift man to the exaltation of himself by his righteousness.(Second Paragraph, Haskell commenting)


Again, Haskell said:

Quote:
But when we stated that we believed that Christ was born in fallen humanity, they would represent us as believing that Christ sinned, notwithstanding the fact that we would state our position so clearly that it would seem as though no one could misunderstand us.


which seems like the same debate we're having here.

If your ideas were correct, then Donnel would be correct, and Haskell in error. Ellen White said there was not a thread of truth in the whole fabric. It seems like, on the contrary (assuming what you're suggesting were correct), there would be quite a lot of truth in the fabric, which would just need to be tweaked a bit.


Quote:
T:Or do you think merely having the temptation is a sin?

R:Two things. First, a sinful suggestion is different from a sinful desire. Second, if you desire something evil, the desire itself is evil.

1 Cor. 10:6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.


Does this mean yes? Merely having a temptation is a sin? (not including temptations of suggestion).

If this is what you think, it's easy to see why you would think that Christ could not have taken our nature.

Do you believe that Christ was tempted sexually? Did He ever feel the desire to have sex?

Quote:
T:Sin is only conceived when an act of the will takes place, acceding to the temptation.

R:When you acceed to the temptation, this is no longer a desire, but a decision. The desire precedes the decision, but the sin may begin in it.


It looks like you are equating temptation with desire, and desire with sin, so that temptation is sin. Is this correct?

To clarify, one type of temptation is of the type of suggestion, such as Satan tried with Christ. You don't believe having a temptation like this is sin. However, other temptations, which are not suggestions, you do view as sin. This is what I'm hearing you say. Am I misunderstanding you?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110377
03/22/09 10:22 PM
03/22/09 10:22 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Elle, here's a famous EGW statement:

Quote:
"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. (COL 69)


I'm interested in your thoughts on this. Also your thoughts on the 144,000 in general. You don't believe they'll be totally victorious over sin?

So as to not give the wrong idea, while I believe the 144,000 will overcome, I don't believe the focus of our message should be that, but should rather be on God's love and character. I'll comment more later.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110383
03/22/09 11:38 PM
03/22/09 11:38 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Tom
Elle, here's a famous EGW statement:
[quote]"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. (COL 69)/quote]
I'm interested in your thoughts on this. Also your thoughts on the 144,000 in general. You don't believe they'll be totally victorious over sin?

So as to not give the wrong idea, while I believe the 144,000 will overcome, I don't believe the focus of our message should be that, but should rather be on God's love and character. I'll comment more later.
I don't believe the 144,000 will overcome. I believe Christ in them will overcome for them. I believe they will be sealed which is the mystery of God as written in Rev 10:7.

I believe that we are justified by the righteousness of Jesus. Rm 5
I believe it's a free gift and Jesus already lived the perfect life for me.
He already conquered Satan for me.
The only thing He ask me, is to remain in His grace and to trust Him.

Anything short of that, we fall in the RCC's teachings that we need to work or pay for our salvation and we loose sight of the gospel.

I agree God's love and character should be our focuss. In studying in regards to Christ nature, we should be seeing His love and character.

However, it seems that it is human's nature to have merite in his salvation. It seems this debate is revolving around if someone can prove that Christ was 100% like us physically, and in inheritence of all our degenerative evil propensities, then the obvious conclusion is that we have no excuse and can be victorious and conquer all sins. The direction it's going, it confuses and weakens the gospel message by putting the weight of our salvation on our back.

We're loosing the gospel Luther embrased, "the just shall live by faith ALONE" and what Paul understood "by the righteousness of ONE [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life."

I want to be victorious in Christ, not in my works.


Blessings
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Elle] #110388
03/23/09 10:55 AM
03/23/09 10:55 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I'm interested in your thoughts on COL 69, that when Christ's character is perfectly reproduced in his people, then He will come.

Also, when it says that they overcame by the blood of the lamb, you understand this to mean that Jesus Christ overcame for them? Is this correct?

Do you see any difference in the 144,000 and other believers in Christ from previous generations? (other than the time they live)

Thanks for answering my questions.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110390
03/23/09 01:08 PM
03/23/09 01:08 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Tom, what is col 69? Christ Object Lessons p.69? Can you bring the quote here.

I re-read my post above and I sound quite assertive. laugh You know, yesterday was the first time in over 20 years of Adventism, that I had the assurance of salvation. Can you believe that. Well, that's the truth. The break through came from listening to the sermons of Pastor Bill Liversidge regarding "Victory in Jesus".

Before yesterday, I knew I was in the works and knew that I was missing something in the understanding of the gospel. I didn't know what, but finally Bill Liversidge brought it in front of me by studying Rom 5 to 8. I still have to digest it, and it was just an overview of the gospel but that truth set me free from the bondage of the law.

Today, I'm a bit busy, but I'll work on a respond and share with you how I think it relates to the 144,000 and others.


Blessings
Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Tom] #110391
03/23/09 01:21 PM
03/23/09 01:21 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Rosangela, is it your argument that Ellen White had a concept of original sin? (or something similar) And "taint of sin" was similar to the Catholic concept of a taint being passed from parent to child? If so, then we have the problem of Mary passing her taint. Is this the idea?

Tom, the catholic doctrine of original sin is the guilt of Adam’s sin transmitted to us. We have discussed this previously many times, and you know very well that it’s not this that I hold. What I say is that we are born with defective traits of character, which means a defective character unlike the character of God; that we are born loving ourselves supremely instead of loving God supremely; that we are born with a carnal mind not subject to the law of God; that we are born with the propensity to disobey God. Your view doesn’t seem to consider this to be a taint of sin and, therefore, I disagree with it.

Quote:
Rather than somehow mitigating DA 49, her assertion regarding Christ's being born without a taint of sin looks not to have anything to do with the human nature He took.

You are clearly mistaken. The quote cited in my last post:

“He had not taken on Him even the nature of angels, but humanity, perfectly identical with our own nature, except without the taint of sin” (Ms 57, 1890).

Here it’s clearly said that the humanity Christ took - not His divinity nor the humanity He developed - was without the taint of sin.

Another quote to confirm it:

He humbled Himself in taking the nature of man in his fallen condition, but He did not take the taint of sin. {20MR 324.1}

Quote:
If your ideas were correct, then Donnel would be correct, and Haskell in error. Ellen White said there was not a thread of truth in the whole fabric. It seems like, on the contrary (assuming what you're suggesting were correct), there would be quite a lot of truth in the fabric, which would just need to be tweaked a bit.

If one of the premises is wrong and, therefore, the conclusion is wrong, what is left? Their premise was that the sinful nature (flesh) consists just of sinful tendencies. Therefore, they concluded, if the sinful tendencies are removed we will have holy flesh. Of course this is completely wrong, because holy flesh also means natural enmity against Satan and a will naturally in harmony with the will of God. Our will is weak to resist evil, and we must have the enmity against Satan continually implanted in us by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it’s impossible for us to achieve holy flesh here, and the whole movement, with its false ideal, was completely wrong.

Quote:
Does this mean yes? Merely having a temptation is a sin? (not including temptations of suggestion).

Yes, a temptation which proceeds from “the evil of our own hearts,” generating sinful desires, is a sin.

Quote:
Do you believe that Christ was tempted sexually? Did He ever feel the desire to have sex?

Why do you ask this specifically? Do you consider sex in itself to be a sinful tendency? It’s not a sinful tendency but a physical passion and, under the control of reason, it’s a blessing. The problem is that human beings have many sinful tendencies, both inherited (if the parents abused this gift) and cultivated, revolving around sex.

Re: Christ Desired and Lusted to Sin? [Re: Elle] #110392
03/23/09 01:22 PM
03/23/09 01:22 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
You know, yesterday was the first time in over 20 years of Adventism, that I had the assurance of salvation.

Amen, Elle! God bless you.

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