As we just saw - you did bring up GC 535 and DA 764 and ask that we look at them as your way of explaining away GC 673 (and now EW 294). But when I point to the work done there - you say that this has no bearing?


in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I'm not asking about GC 535. I'm asking about GC 541-543. I'm asking, particularly, about this:



Why, when I ask you how your view fits with other things written on the subject, to you understand this as "explaining away" what she said?

You assert that the EW passage is literal, which means it should be easy for you to explain what it means. I've asked you several times what it means, but you haven't answered.

Do you not believe that what we believe about God's character is important? Ellen White wrote, in the same book we've been discussing ("The Great Controversy")



Here she's pointing out that Satan's whole strategy is predicated on a misunderstanding of God's character, and, in particular, related to cruelty. You are suggesting an interpretation that seems to be the cruelest interpretation possible given her words. This should give one pause. At the very least, you could try to explain how the same author who wrote what I just quoted here would write what she wrote in GC 673 and mean what you think she means. How would burning someone, keeping them alive so their suffering doesn't end, until every last particle is consumed, not be cruel?

Well since you don't want to talk about GC673 or 535 -- ok it will be GC 541 "and all context information".

1. As it turns out GC 541 is still the SAME chapter as GC535 - which is still talking about the error of the "immortal soul" doctrine and the "eternal torment" doctrine.

2. In that chapter - Ellen White condemns the idea of simply lifting one sentence out as you have done above in an attempt to get a strained meaning.

3. In that chapter Ellen White condemns the idea of NOT taking the strong statements in the Bible about the torment of the wicked "literally".

4. on GC 540-542 Ellen White makes it very clear that the MERCY of God toward the wicked is in NOT tormenting them forever and is in NOT requiring that they be forced to serve God in heaven forever. She NEVER says that "it is nice to punish them in the fire" as some would have supposed it NOR does she say "the fire is not real".



It is your own efforts to ignore the text of GC673 and EW 294 that are resulting in my claim that you are trying to "explain them away".

But as we see in the case of GC 535 - 542 - the methods you are using are specifically mentioned in the text.



1. It is true it is easy to show what it means
2. It is true that you have asked for this several times - but each time you do you try to style it as "GC 541 vs Bob's ideas" simply because I QUOTE GC 673 and EW 294. That means I have to keep stopping to point out that I am not writing those PAGES I am simply quoting them.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I've responded to your points below, but you've not done what I've asked, which is to explain how the principles of love, mercy and kindness are present in your view. Also how the judgment of the wicked will be for their own good. I don't understand, given how you look at things, how you could possibly think this is true. Nor do I see how their destruction could be voluntary with themselves. Who would volunteer to be burned alive by fire for days at a time?



We've talked quite a bit about GC 673. I certainly don't mind talking about 535. You never addressed the point made there, which is that your view is the same as what she described, except for the duration of the event. Do you agree with this assertion? If not, what's different about your view, other than the duration?



Not exactly. The chapter starts out talking about the "eternal torment" doctrine, and explains the problems with it. Then it examines the other ditch, so to speak, which is Universalism. The context of GC 541-543 is Universalism. She explains why the wicked cannot live forever. God would make them happy if He could, but that's not possible, because of what they've done to their characters.



What are you referring to? I've cited several passages, including GC 35-36, GC 541-543, DA 764, DA 107-108, and GC 535-536. In every case I've presented several paragraphs, not just one sentence.



I suppose you mean the following:



This is obviously speaking to the idea of Universalism, that all will be all right with the wicked eventually. It's not promoting an idea that God will supernaturally keep the wicked alive so they can suffer excruciating pain caused by literal fir to pay for their sins.



You say some supposed "it is nice to punish them in the fire." Is this a joke? How could anyone suppose this?

Regarding the fire not being real, that's made clear in a number of passages. For example, she says that the same thing which gives life to the righteous will slay the wicked. This being true, it cannot be literal fire which destroys the wicked, because it is not literal fire which gives life to the righteous.

She also says in a number of places that the glory of God will destroy the wicked. The glory of God is not literal fire either.



Same question. Why do you characterize trying to understand these texts in the light of other texts she wrote on the subject as "ignoring" these texts? Why can it not be fairly characterized as seeking to understand her thoughts on a subject by taking all that she wrote about it into account, as she requested.



She was arguing against Universalism. I don't believe in Universalism. I believe the threats warned about will be literally fulfilled. The wicked will be destroyed, just as inspiration as has declared. The light of the glory of God, which gives life to the righteous, will slay the wicked, just as it says.



Here's the passage:



Please, what does this mean, in your own words?

Also, is the following literal?

Also I'm curious as to why you think God will act as you suppose. Do you not think it is cruel to burn people alive for days at a time? Is it your view that God does cruel things like this habitually? Or do you no think this is cruel? Or do you think this is a one time deal, that God is usually not cruel, but this one time He is?

1. "In the text" of the chapter she addresses "immortal soul" and "eternal torment" specifically. You seem to need to co-opt the chapter and spin this to almost an argument against "any kind of inconvenience that is not pleasing to the wicked being condemned" such that "they would not consider it all for their good". In fact she condemns the "God is love so He does not inconvenience the wicked" kind of thinking in that chapter as well -- as it turns out.

2. Since I never argued for "eternal torment" or for "immortal soul" or for "universalism" and since these are the ONLY things she condemns in that chapter - you seem to be relying on the wrong chapter to make your case.

At least that is the way it appears.

in Christs,

Bob

Certainly I agree with you that universalism is being condemned there. So also is her argument against Immortal soul and eternal torment extended past 540 as we see here.

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"No fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." Ephesians 5:5, A.R.V. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Revelation 22:14, 15. {GC 541.1}
God has given to men a declaration of His character and of His method of dealing with sin. "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. "All the wicked will He destroy." "The transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 145:20; 37:38. The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. {GC 541.3}
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God
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executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver[/b]; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, [/b] when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? {GC 542.1}
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation
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were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}
Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable. They have no disposition to submit to divine authority. Their will has been exercised in revolt; and when life is ended, it is too late to turn the current of their thoughts in the opposite direction, too late to turn from transgression to obedience, from hatred to love. {GC 543.1}
In sparing the life of Cain the murderer, God gave the world an example of what would be the result of permitting the sinner to live to continue a course of unbridled iniquity. Through the influence of Cain's teaching and example, multitudes of his descendants were led into sin, until "the wickedness of man was great in the earth" and "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." Genesis 6:5, 11. {GC 543.2}
In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace.
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{GC 543.3}
"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC 544.1}
In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;" "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts 24:15; I Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. They who have been "accounted worthy" of the resurrection of life are "blessed and holy." "On such the second death hath no power." Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though
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they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}
Thus will be made an end of sin, with all the woe and ruin which have resulted from it. Says the psalmist: "Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Thou hast put out their name forever and ever. O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end." Psalm 9:5, 6. John, in the Revelation, looking forward to the eternal state, hears a universal anthem of praise undisturbed by one note of discord. Every creature in heaven and earth was heard ascribing glory to God. Revelation 5:13. There will then be no lost souls to blaspheme God as they writhe in never-ending torment; no wretched beings in hell will mingle their shrieks with the songs of the saved. {GC 545.1}

Upon the fundamental error of natural immortality rests the doctrine of consciousness in death
================================================

Thus the argument against immortal soul and eternal torment continued as the theme and substance of the entire chapter.

in Christ,

Bob

In fact she continues to affirm the same details as we see later in the SAME book in GC 673 and in EW 294.

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"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC 544.1}
In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;" "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts 24:15; I Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. They who have been "accounted worthy" of the resurrection of life are "blessed and holy." "On such the second death hath no power." Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though
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they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}

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You seem to have lost the point just then. She continues to argue for the real burning and torment of that fire. There is no way to bend her statements such that it becomes "all goodness" for the wicked. It can not be done.



1. How "nice" for your argument if you had even one text of scriptur or statement from Ellen White saying "the fire is not real" instead of the oft-repeated "SAME fire that CONSUMES the wicked burnd the earth".

2. How inconvenient "the detail" that both Ellen White AND the Bible agree that the wicked are JUDGED "in the very presence" of God himself and that during that judgment - NO consuming, NO burning, no torment in the lake of fire or fire and brimstone -- it is only AFTER that - when they are subjected to the fire and brimstone torment - that we see them "aflame".

in Christ,

Bob

The text of my post was a bit brief so possibly a cause of the confusion. My reference there was not to her statements on universalism but rather to her argument that the harsh Bible texts about burning the wicked are to be accepted as literally true.

As well as her argument that you are not to lift a few sentences out of context and then attempt to use them to put forward a different meaning than that chapter will support.

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A large class to whom the doctrine of eternal torment is revolting are driven to the opposite error. They see that the Scriptures represent God as a being of love and compassion, and they cannot believe that He will consign His creatures to the fires of an eternally burning hell. But holding that the soul is naturally immortal, they see no alternative but to conclude that all mankind will finally be saved. Many regard the threatenings of the Bible as designed merely to frighten men into obedience, and not to be literally fulfilled. Thus the sinner can live in selfish pleasure, disregarding the requirements of God, and yet expect to be finally received into His favor. Such a doctrine, presuming upon God's mercy, but ignoring His justice, pleases the carnal heart and emboldens the wicked in their iniquity. {GC 537.1}
To show how believers in universal salvation wrest the Scriptures to sustain their soul-destroying dogmas, it is needful only to cite their own utterances. At the funeral of an irreligious young man, who had been killed instantly by an accident, a Universalist minister selected as his text the Scripture statement concerning David: "He was comforted concerning Amnon, seeing he was dead." 2 Samuel 13:39. {GC 537.2}
...

And from what does this perverter of the Scriptures draw his conclusions? From a single sentence expressing David's submission to the dispensation of Providence. His
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soul "longed to go forth unto Absalom; for he was comforted concerning Amnon, seeing he was dead." The poignancy of his grief having been softened by time, his thoughts turned from the dead to the living son, self-banished through fear of the just punishment of his crime. And this is the evidence that the incestuous, drunken Amnon was at death immediately transported to the abodes of bliss, there to be purified and prepared for the companionship of sinless angels! A pleasing fable indeed, well suited to gratify the carnal heart! This is Satan's own doctrine, and it does his work effectually. Should we be surprised that, with such instruction, wickedness abounds? {GC 538.4}
The course pursued by this one false teacher illustrates that of many others. A few words of Scripture are separated from the context, which would in many cases show their meaning to be exactly opposite to the interpretation put upon them; and such disjointed passages are perverted and used in proof of doctrines that have no foundation in the word of God. The testimony cited as evidence that the drunken Amnon is in heaven is a mere inference directly contradicted by the plain and positive statement of the Scriptures that no drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:10. It is thus that doubters, unbelievers, and skeptics turn the truth into a lie. And multitudes have been deceived by their sophistry and rocked to sleep in the cradle of carnal security. {GC 539.1}

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My point is that "the methods" used to make the case for universalism are being condemned not just the doctrine of univeralism.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I'm not taking a few sentences of our context, but quoting multiple paragraphs.







I'll stop at three. I've been asking how your ideas fit with these paragraphs. So far, I haven't seen that you've even made an attempt to explain how.