Why is this important? She enunciates principles. It is these principles which are important. I'm asking about the principles, but you dodge all the questions of this sort. What are the principles involved in your way of thinking?



You made no attempted whatsoever to answer my question. How is your view any different from the one she describes as "dreadful blasphemy" apart from duration? Is that the only difference? Is Satanic cruelty OK, as long as it's not eternal?



You are dodging my question sir!

My question is a simple one. Is there any difference between your view and the one she argues against other than duration? If so, what is it?

What in the world are you talking about? First you say "it is nice to punish them in the fire" and not "it becomes 'all goodness' for the wicked." What's going on?

Why not respond to my questions, instead of saying these sorts of things? Nobody in this discussion believes these things. This are just red herrings.



She said "the glory of God will destroy them." If fire destroys them, then the glory of God is fire. That's what the text says.





Here's a simple question, Bob. Hopefully I'll get an answer. Do you think that Jesus Christ experienced the second death?

here we see the Mercy to the Universe and to the lost - in God's Justice.

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"No fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." Ephesians 5:5, A.R.V. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord." Hebrews 12:14. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." Revelation 22:14, 15. {GC 541.1}
God has given to men a declaration of His character and of His method of dealing with sin. "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7. "All the wicked will He destroy." "The transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 145:20; 37:38. The power and authority of the divine government will be employed to put down rebellion; yet all the manifestations of retributive justice will be perfectly consistent with the character of God as a merciful, long-suffering, benevolent being. {GC 541.2}
God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. {GC 541.3}
The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God
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executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver[/b]; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, [/b] when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}
Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? {GC 542.1}
Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation
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were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}

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Clearly we see it is mercy NOT to hold the lost chained to God in eternal worship and praise -- that is contrary to their very natures.

But there is no "fires are in mercy" -- the context of "mercy" is specific to the point of not forcing them into eternal worship of God against their will. Nothing more.

AS for the "very inconvenient" and unwelcomed (by the wicked) torment and punishment-by degrees that is LONGER for some than others (indeed even DAYS longer as GC 673 points out)...

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Like the waters of the Flood the fires of the great day declare God's verdict that the wicked are incurable. They have no disposition to submit to divine authority. Their will has been exercised in revolt; and when life is ended, it is too late to turn the current of their thoughts in the opposite direction, too late to turn from transgression to obedience, from hatred to love. {GC 543.1}
In sparing the life of Cain the murderer, God gave the world an example of what would be the result of permitting the sinner to live to continue a course of unbridled iniquity. Through the influence of Cain's teaching and example, multitudes of his descendants were led into sin, until "the wickedness of man was great in the earth" and "every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." Genesis 6:5, 11. {GC 543.2}
In mercy to the world, God blotted out its wicked inhabitants in Noah's time. In mercy He destroyed the corrupt dwellers in Sodom. Through the deceptive power of Satan the workers of iniquity obtain sympathy and admiration, and are thus constantly leading others to rebellion. It was so in Cain's and in Noah's day, and in the time of Abraham and Lot; it is so in our time. It is in mercy to the universe that God will finally destroy the rejecters of His grace.
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{GC 543.3}
"The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. While life is the inheritance of the righteous, death is the portion of the wicked. Moses declared to Israel: "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil." Deuteronomy 30:15. The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is "the second death" that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC 544.1}
In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. "There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;" "for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Acts 24:15; I Corinthians 15:22. But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. "All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29. They who have been "accounted worthy" of the resurrection of life are "blessed and holy." "On such the second death hath no power." Revelation 20:6. But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression--"the wages of sin." They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: "Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." And another declares: "They shall be as though
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they had not been." Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC 544.2}

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And so we see that the SAME literal fire concept as with the literal water at the flood -- that destroys the LIFE of the wicked being presented -- yes even in THIS chapter! And the point of suffering by degrees greater and LONGER for some than others -- in perfect harmony with the "inconvenient detail" of GC 673 that this is in fact DAYS Longer - is consitently presented even in THIS chapter.

But of course THIS chapter is not the primary chapter to find page after page of "detail" on exactly what happens at the 2nd death -- for that we go to GC 672-673 EW294 where that IS the subject of the chapter. For in THIS chapter from start to finish the subject is page after page of refuting the errors of "immortal soul" and "eternal torment" and "universalism".

Yes. Christ experienced all the suffering and torment of the 2nd death that would be owed by all of mankind for each and every sin in all of time. A degree of suffering and torment that no sinless perfect angel reflecting faithfully the character of God in his every action had the "capacity" to suffer.

As Heb 2 points out - Christ tasted the sufferings of death for every man.

In 1Johh 2:2 "He is the Atoning SACRIFICE for our SINS and not our sins only but for the SINS of the Whole World".

The text does not say "the atoning sacrifice for US and not for US alone but for everyone in the whole world". It is specific that the sacrifice is for each and every one of the sins of the whole world.

in Christ,

Bob

I need to point out something here. It appears to me that you, like some evolutionists, have created a fact from a conclusion.

First, from a human understanding perspective, you have the problem of, if the sun did not already exist, what did the earth orbit?

Second, is it possible that parenthetical statements could be added to the creation record? Especially considering that "and He made the stars also" is in the same verse. Or would you suggest that He made them on the fourth day, too?

Third, what is your consideration that "made" ['asah] in verse 16 is different from "created" [bara'] in verse 21? Would you object to the reading of
So, I'm not sure that you can say, "change the fact", when you have not even established it.

In light of that, could other things be different than what you say -- that they are not facts but conclusions?

In reference to Herod slaughtering the newborns:

(This can make multiple points)

Agreed.



??? What's this mean?



This isn't true. The context is discussing God's character. The section I quoted started out by saying that God wants His creatures to have an intelligent appreciation of His character.

She points out that God would make them happy if He could. The context of the statement regarding not forcing them against their will is to point out that there is no way that God can make them happy.



How is it "unwelcomed" if it is "voluntary"? Doesn't "voluntary" contradict the idea of "unwelcome"?



What is "inconvenient detail"? Your posts keep using this phrase. Is this just simply sarcasm, or a direct reference to something I'm unaware of?

My position is that the destruction of the wicked is not arbitrary (or "manufactured," to use your word), but is the inevitable result of sin. The wicked suffer in proportion for their sin because it's their sin which causes their suffering; the more sin, the more suffering.

You keep citing this point, that the suffering is proportional, as if it somehow supported your position, but it doesn't. From my position, it is inevitable that the suffering of the wicked be proportional. There's not other scenario possible. But from yours, since the punishment is manufactured, it could be manufactured so that the wicked all suffered the same, or manufactured to some other criteria.

At any rate, the fact that the wicked suffer varying amounts certainly doesn't strengthen your position in any way.

Regarding the fire, we know that "the light of the glory of God, which gives life to righteous, will slay the wicked" and that "the glory of He who is love will destroy them." How could this be referring to literal fire?



Why would you prefer details over principles? It seems to me your approach is exactly backwards. It's by way of principles that we understand the details.

For example, a couple of the principles GC 541-543 point out are that the judgment is operated by the principles of love, mercy and kindness. How can burning people for days on end, supernaturally keeping them alive so they can experience excruciating pain, be termed as "kindness"? Wouldn't it be more humane, given they have to pay for their transgression by pain, to have the pain doled out in smaller doses over a longer period of time? Just how much pain do you think is involved in being burned alive? Wouldn't that be pretty much unimaginable? Worse than any torture devised by man in all the history of our planet?

Another principle is that the exclusion of the wicked is voluntary with themselves. Instead, in your view, I see the idea that judgment is "unwelcome," that it is forced upon the wicked against their will.

1. It is unclear that any fact has been "changed" by me in simply observing that on the 4th day "He MADE TWO great lights". That in fact -- is the easy part.

2. There is no requirement in the text at all that the earth "orbit the sun" on day 1 or 2 or 3.. not sure why you even mention it.

3. The "he made the stars also" is seen by contrast since the text says "he made TWO great lights" on day 4 -- instead of "he made a zillion and TWO great lights" in which case - we would have to include the stars in is primary subjects instead of parenthetical comment.

So far -- I think I am only stating the obvious. Again this is the easy part.

4. If one attempted an eisegetical exercise to try and "undo day 4" objects created - then you have "a vaccuous day 4" in which things that were not made on day 4 are merely 'mentioned' instead of "made". As if "Moses' mentioning them" constituted a "day 4 activity" over 2000 years before Moses at Creation week.

My point remains then - merely "not knowing HOW to create the Sun" or the moon much less "in one day" does not "change the text". Bringing up a zillion points of "unknowns" for the non-God humans to discuss when they come up to some event they can neither observe nor manufacture - does not change the content of the text.

in Christ,

Bob

Ellen White argues for the voluntary choice NOT to serve God -- she never argues for voluntary choice to burn in the lake of fire. Impossible to ignore that "detail".

It would be like saying that because a convicted criminal voluntarily chose to kill - that "he wants to be hanged".

So I am puzzled when you try to equate the two events as if both are desired by the criminal simply because he really did "want" to do the crime but not 'the time'.

in Christ,

Bob

As I asked before, is "detail" simply sarcasm? Or is it a reference to some text that I'm unaware of? Why are you putting it in quotes?



I'm not following you here.

Ellen White says their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves. There are only two choices. If they choose not to go to heaven, they are choosing to die. If their death involved being burned alive for days, supernaturally kept alive so their excruciating pain can continue as long as desired (i.e., as long as God desires) then it's difficult to see how any person would make this choice. This is why I'm saying that I don't see how your view fits with what she wrote.