M: The majority of humans born since A&E will pay the price Jesus paid when they suffer and die at the end of time.

T: Was Jesus' death like the death of the wicked? Or unlike it? If it was unlike it, how could the wicked be paying the same price Jesus paid?

M: Unlike Jesus, of course, they will not survive draining the cup of woe. So, do you agree with me that the majority of mankind can and will die the second death? And, do you agree it will pay the price for the penalty of sinning?

T: No, not in your terms. I don't see it as an arbitrary thing which pays some price. I see their death as the inevitable result of sin. Sin is to death as the acorn is to the Oak tree. "Sin, when it is finished, brings forth death."

What are you accusing me of? What do you think I believe?

What do you call stoning someone to death? The punishment for certain sins began with capital punishment. So, the question remains unanswered - What is so symbiotic, so organic about capital punishment?

Punishment and suffering and death are the inevitable results of sin – not just suffering and death.

Had God punished the evil angels prematurely, the loyal angels would not have understood why it was the right and righteous thing for God to do. Again, capital punishment, the infliction of punishment by God, is the inevitable results of sin. The same is true of all governments. God’s government is no different.

I understand your view, Tom. I have for some time now. You believe God is preventing sinners from succumbing to the natural, unimpeded cause and consequence effects of sinning. You believe as soon as God stops doing this, sinners will immediately begin suffering emotionally and physically in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness and then die. You refer to this as God “punishing” them.

What you haven't made clear yet is the role God's glory plays in the final demise of sinners at the end of time. At times it seems like you're saying it is the glory of God reacting with sin that causes sinners to suffer and die. Then at other times it seems like you believe it is sin alone that causes them to suffer and die. Please explain this to me.

M: What are you accusing me of? What do you think I believe?

T: Of believing things you say are invalid, that don't need to be logical, that you have no understanding as to why they are the way you believe.

M: What do you call stoning someone to death? The punishment for certain sins began with capital punishment. So, the question remains unanswered - What is so symbiotic, so organic about capital punishment?

T: As I explained, the death which is "the inevitable result of sin" is not this death. It's the second death.

M: Punishment and suffering and death are the inevitable results of sin – not just suffering and death.

T: The suffering and death *is* the punishment. Even in your view this is true.

M: Had God punished the evil angels prematurely, the loyal angels would not have understood why it was the right and righteous thing for God to do. Again, capital punishment, the infliction of punishment by God, is the inevitable results of sin. The same is true of all governments. God’s government is no different.

T: This is what you believe, but not nearly what she says. Not even close. She says nothing about capital punishment, and nothing about God doing something to cause the death of anyone. Indeed, she says very strongly the reverse, that's it's *not* God. She says this several times in several different ways.

M: I understand your view, Tom. I have for some time now. You believe God is preventing sinners from succumbing to the natural, unimpeded cause and consequence effects of sinning. You believe as soon as God stops doing this, sinners will immediately begin suffering emotionally and physically in proportion and in duration to their sinfulness and then die. You refer to this as God “punishing” them.

M: What you haven't made clear yet is the role God's glory plays in the final demise of sinners at the end of time. At times it seems like you're saying it is the glory of God reacting with sin that causes sinners to suffer and die. Then at other times it seems like you believe it is sin alone that causes them to suffer and die. Please explain this to me.

T: I've explained this at length several times, MM. At least three times I can think of, once on this very thread. Perhaps you could hunt that down. Meanwhile I'll see if I have something written up somewhere that I can copy/paste.

One thing to point out is that I've never once said that sin alone, without respect to the glory of God, causes the wicked to die.

T: Was Jesus' death like the death of the wicked? Or unlike it? If it was unlike it, how could the wicked be paying the same price Jesus paid?

MM:Both. But there are way more dissimilarities. The wicked will pay the price for their own sins. Jesus paid the price for all sins. There are physical dissimilarities too. Jesus was beaten and abused and nailed to a cross. The wicked, on the other hand, will not be.

The expression, "Bring it on", comes to mind. By their actions sinners say, Bring it on, that is, punish me for my sins. "All they that hate me love death."

The principles of kindness, mercy, and love, taught and exemplified by our Saviour, are a transcript of the will and character of God. Christ declared that He taught nothing except that which He had received from His Father. The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541-543)

The question is, though, do you agree with me that their second death (insert your explanation of how it will play out) will pay the price for sin?

Also, do you think Jesus' experience from the garden to the grave paid the price for sin?

If so, does this mean the infliction of pain and punishment is part of it?

T: Of believing things you say are invalid, that don't need to be logical, that you have no understanding as to why they are the way you believe.

M:If you think I believe that way then you haven't been hearing me.

I've never said it is illogical; it's just that I don't understand why it is valid. In human courts of law we do not allow death-row criminals to go free and execute an innocent person in their place....Logic doesn't have anything to do with it. Love doesn't have to be logical to be valid. But this isn't to say it is illogical. I don't understand it, but I believe it because God said so.

M: Punishment and suffering and death are the inevitable results of sin – not just suffering and death.

T: The suffering and death *is* the punishment. Even in your view this is true.

M:Not so! Suffering and death are the results of the punishment.

M: Had God punished the evil angels prematurely, the loyal angels would not have understood why it was the right and righteous thing for God to do. Again, capital punishment, the infliction of punishment by God, is the inevitable results of sin. The same is true of all governments. God’s government is no different.

T: This is what you believe, but not nearly what she says. Not even close. She says nothing about capital punishment, and nothing about God doing something to cause the death of anyone. Indeed, she says very strongly the reverse, that's it's *not* God. She says this several times in several different ways.

M: If what you say is true, how, then, do you reconcile the fact so many smart people agree with me?

T: Was Jesus' death like the death of the wicked? Or unlike it? If it was unlike it, how could the wicked be paying the same price Jesus paid?

M: Both. But there are way more dissimilarities. The wicked will pay the price for their own sins. Jesus paid the price for all sins. There are physical dissimilarities too. Jesus was beaten and abused and nailed to a cross. The wicked, on the other hand, will not be.

T: This just makes my point. It's rather ironic. You don't think I believe that Christ paid the price for our sins, but I believe that Christ experienced what the wicked will experience, suffering and death having nothing to do with literal fire, but with a sense of God's wrath, of being separated from God. On the other hand, you think Christ's death is way different than the death of the wicked, so He couldn't have paid the price they pay, nor could He have suffered their death.

M: The expression, "Bring it on", comes to mind. By their actions sinners say, Bring it on, that is, punish me for my sins. "All they that hate me love death."

T: No, this isn't the idea at all. Here's the idea:

M: The question is, though, do you agree with me that their second death (insert your explanation of how it will play out) will pay the price for sin?

T: If you mean like Romans 6:23 says, "Sin pays its wages: death," then yes.

M: Also, do you think Jesus' experience from the garden to the grave paid the price for sin?

T: More than you do, it looks like.

M: If so, does this mean the infliction of pain and punishment is part of it?

T: Not if you mean God's doing something to inflict pain. Yes if you mean like how poison inflicts pain on its victims.

T: Of believing things you say are invalid, that don't need to be logical, that you have no understanding as to why they are the way you believe.

M: If you think I believe that way then you haven't been hearing me.

T: Here's what you said:


You said, "I don't understand why it is valid. In human courts of law we do not allow death-row criminals to go free and execute an innocent person in their place.... Logic doesn't have anything to do with it. Love doesn't have to be logical to be valid.... I don't understand it, but I believe it because God said so.

This is what I think you're saying.

T: About your organic question, you're going to have to try asking it some other way, because if you're not asking why the death caused capital punishment is organic to sin, I don't know what you're asking. If this is what you're asking, I've answered this several times.

M: Punishment and suffering and death are the inevitable results of sin – not just suffering and death.

T: The suffering and death *is* the punishment. Even in your view this is true.

M: Not so! Suffering and death are the results of the punishment.

T: In your view, God, to make people pay for their sins, causes them to suffer and die. That's their punishment.

M: Had God punished the evil angels prematurely, the loyal angels would not have understood why it was the right and righteous thing for God to do. Again, capital punishment, the infliction of punishment by God, is the inevitable results of sin. The same is true of all governments. God’s government is no different.

T: This is what you believe, but not nearly what she says. Not even close. She says nothing about capital punishment, and nothing about God doing something to cause the death of anyone. Indeed, she says very strongly the reverse, that's it's *not* God. She says this several times in several different ways.

M: If what you say is true, how, then, do you reconcile the fact so many smart people agree with me?

T: I guess this means you have no rebuttal to the context of what I said. As to why many smart people agree with you, what specifically are you referring to? If you're talking about your viewpoints in any sort of logical grouping (that is, how you see things overall) I don't think there are many people period who agree with you, whether smart or not.

Yes, that is what I wrote. Nicely done. However, I didn't say "invalid" or "no understanding".

Do you think the infliction of death is the organic result of sin? If not, how do you explain God commanding capital punishment?

T: In your view, God, to make people pay for their sins, causes them to suffer and die. That's their punishment.

M:No, that's not my view. I believe the wicked will be punished according to their sinfulness. They will experience emotional and physical agony as a result of punishment.

1. I do believe you think Jesus paid a price for our sins.
2. I do believe the wicked will pay the price for their sins.

I'm curious, Tom, do you think Jesus experienced suffering like a sinner or like our Savior?

Was He so in love with Himself and sinning that heaven and the very presence of the Father would have been torture, that He would have desired death?

What is ironic about what I think and believe?

M: The expression, "Bring it on", comes to mind. By their actions sinners say, Bring it on, that is, punish me for my sins. "All they that hate me love death."

T: No, this isn't the idea at all. Here's the idea:

M:Correct...

M: If so, does this mean the infliction of pain and punishment is part of it?

T: Not if you mean God's doing something to inflict pain. Yes if you mean like how poison inflicts pain on its victims.

M:Have you forgotten the fact the Jews and the Romans inflicted pain and punishment? So, if you insist Jesus' experience is indicative of what the wicked will go through at the end of time, then you have to agree with me that it will involve the infliction of pain and punishment.