Tom, I have been arguing this point since early on. How is what you're saying now different than what I've been saying recently?

Where in the OT did Moses say that Mountain Man would fully understand what he wrote?

I'm not sure if it is beneficial to contort and request a specificly worded passage. Tom has shown where others thought Moses clearly explained it. You just don't think it is clearly explained.

Maybe you can help by thinking through what would be necessary for the OT to say that Moses clearly explained it? If the Pentateuch was written by Moses, you would not expect Moses to say he clearly explained something, would you? Otherwise why would he write something that he did not clearly explain? So therefore, you would have to look in the rest of the OT. Why the OT and not the New?

How do you think it's similar?

Moses took for granted that his reading audience understood that the Son of God would eventually die and that animal sacrifices symbolize His death. "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you," is the type of thinking that guided Moses. By the time Jesus arrived on the scene very few understood it.


BTW, Nicodemus didn't completely get it until Jesus died. "When at last Christ had been lifted up on the cross, Nicodemus remembered the words that He had spoken to him in the night interview on the Mount of Olives, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" (John 3:14); and he saw in Jesus the world's Redeemer. {AA 104.1}

Where in the Bible does it say Nicodemus got it? Or, that the Jews got it way back when? Where are the following insights clearly explained in the Bible?

Where does it say he wouldn't?


I couldn't help noticing that neither you nor Tom have quoted from the Pentateuch where Moses clearly explains why Jesus had to die or that the animal sacrifices symbolize His death. I'm still waiting.


Moses explained a great many things in minute detail, often repeating them over and over again. Such content begs the question - Where did he clearly say the Messiah would eventually come and die for the sins of the world? Where did he say all these animal sacrifices symbolize His death? Is that too much to expect?

Here's what we have in the Pentateuch:

1. God spoke about the seed of the woman:

Genesis
3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

2. Jacob spoke about Shiloh:

Genesis
49:9 Judah [is] a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].
49:11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
49:12 His eyes [shall be] red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.

3. God spoke about the seed of Abraham:

Genesis
22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]:
22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

4. Moses wrote about "a Prophet" to come:

Deuteronomy
18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well [spoken that] which they have spoken.
18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
18:19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him.

Which one of the passages above explain why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolize His death?

The following passages make it clear the Jews were severely confused about the Messiah:

Tom?

Kland?

And where does it say it wasn't clearly explained?

Kland, you cannot continue to avoid answering the question and contribute in a meaningful way to this thread. Please post passages from the Pentateuch that you believe clearly address the two concerns of this thread.

Neither Tom nor Kland have shown from the Pentateuch where it explains why Jesus had to die or that the animal sacrifices symbolized His death. In fact, where does it say Jesus would die (let alone why)?

Do we continue to have "controversy and discussion" on a point which, as Mountain Man brings up, appears not to have been covered well in the Bible--against this wise counsel he posted earlier? If so, what benefit do we expect to receive for the time spent?

Nevertheless, Mike, you failed to include in your list a few posts back one of the most important passages on this topic. Considering you would have neglected to mention Abraham and Isaac, I wonder what else may have been overlooked.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.