It assumes I am trying to cast doubt on the Bible, that I have a problem with the Bible, and that that is why I hardly quote from Bible on this forum. None of these are even remotely true. It is offensive to me that she thinks so and said so. It does not give me the benefit of doubt.

Tom, please repost the post where you quoted from the Pentateuch that explains why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolize His death. Thank you.

You're saying that only Ellen White clearly explained the death of Christ, that the Bible doesn't do this. It's also true you quote from the SOP much more than from Scripture. Given these two factors, I don't think it's surprising one would respond similarly to Elle. You've said some pretty provocative things.

i dont see you as having a problem with the bible if that helps. i do have a problem with the way you phrase things sometimes. something i need to watch out for when im trying to make a point.......

i see you as mostly viewing some issues differently than others.

Whose being offensive?

Strike one : It has been suggested that Moses clearly explained why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolized Jesus' death. Do you know where in Bible Moses explained these two things?

Strike two : None of the people you named above clearly explain why Jesus had to die. They simply say He suffered and died with our sins on the cross. The SOP is the only [inspired] place where God has clearly explained why Jesus had to die.

Strike three : Can you prove from the Bible alone that Sunday is the mark of the beast?

These three strikes I've witness since I've been here for only 3 months. And I only read about 25% of the post that comes through. Was there any more strikes? How many more?

By judging by the fruits, to me the above statements, plus by reading through the threads, and whoever knows how many more statements like these you've made in the past, shows that you are casting doubts on the Bible.

So to me, it seems that you think the Bible is not complete. So I ask you plainly. What's your point, and why do you think so?

Teresaq, thank you. I, too, will work harder at making sure my posts are less offensive.

Elle, it is offensive to me that you believe I am casting doubt on the Bible. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. I am merely letting you know it makes me feel bad and sad. It hurts when someone accuses me of doing such a horrible thing.

I do not think the Bible is incomplete in the sense it lacks what we need to develop a loving and lasting relationship with Jesus. Were it not for the precious truths and promises revealed in the Bible I would be a lost and most miserable man. The story of Jesus in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, soothes my soul. It is everything I need to be everything I need to be.

But there are gaps in the Bible. Many things are not explained or entirely missing. Many of these details are fleshed out and brought to light in the SOP. It serves as a guiding light in my life. For this I am very thankful to God. One of the details that is obviously missing in the Pentateuch is Moses' explanation of why Jesus must die and that the animal sacrifices symbolize His death.

I have repeatedly begged people on this thread to show me in the Pentateuch where Moses explains why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolize His death. So far, no one has honored my request. If anything, people have simply expressed shock and horror that I don't know where in the Pentateuch Moses explained these things.

Do you know? If so, please have mercy on me and post it. Thank you.

Tom, please repost the post where you quoted from the Pentateuch that explains why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolize His death. Thank you.

Not true. See #110596 for a recent comment on this.



I expressed shock and horror that you don't know Scripture teaches these things, if that helps. I think it's terrible that you think only Ellen White, of inspired writers, expressed clearly why Jesus died. Also I think you're idea that Jesus, John, Paul and others clearly taught these things, but it wasn't recorded in Scripture, is rather nutty.

Since you seemed to be asking for negative comments, I'm hoping my being able to oblige helps out!

Mike,

I agree that not every detail is recorded in the Bible. For example, the story of Lucifer's fall is very scant in the Bible, though it is there. Mrs. White adds tremendously in that picture.

However, the fact that Jesus had to die and that the animals represented Him is so integral to an understanding of salvation as to make it virtually impossible for it not to have been taught. Do you not view it as necessary for the faith of pre-Messiah generations?

In other words, I can turn the question on its head and ask it the other way, "Was it necessary for Moses to explain why Jesus had to die and that the animal sacrifices symbolized His death?"

My answer to that is, "Yes."

Therefore, that shapes my view of the scriptures, and of the fact that Moses did indeed explain these things.

However, Moses' explanation need not have been explicit. Many of Jesus' most precious truths were "hidden" in parables. He says to all, "he that hath an ear, let him hear." He wants us to work at it, for He knows that by doing so, we will absorb it better, understand it more, and appreciate and remember it.

With that in mind, let me list in bullet form some of the "implicit" references to Jesus' death, as symbolized through the sacrifices, within Moses' writings.

1) Genesis 3:15 -- a descendant of Eve (seed) was promised to overcome the serpent.

2) Genesis 4:1 -- false alarm, but indicates Eve thought this would be the promised "man from the LORD."

3) Genesis 4:25 -- second false alarm, but refers specifically to the "seed" appointed by God.

4) Genesis 12:3 -- "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed," a reference to the lineage of Abram (his seed) bringing the promised One.

5) Genesis 22 -- the story of Abraham sacrificing his only son Isaac. This story is well able to stand on its own in answer to the question of symbolizing Christ's death. However, take special note, with me, of how the story closes--largely passed over by most.

"...thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

This passage hints at a correlation between Abraham's act and the promised Seed. It is significant that Isaac is replaced as the sacrifice by a ram, who's head was caught in thorns. Thus, an animal symbolically replaces a person. "The wise shall understand" (Daniel 10:12).

6) Genesis 28 -- God repeats the promise of the seed to Jacob as he views the dream of the ladder. Both the ladder, and the seed, are references to the Messiah.

7) Exodus 12-13 -- The story of the Passover. God tells the people this:

"And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service? That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD's passover..." (Exodus 12:26-27).

"And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him...therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem" (Exodus 13:14-15).

Notice the reference to redemption? That comes from the Divine command the verse before, Exodus 13:13:

"And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem."

This system of providing for redemption for those under the curse is highly significant and symbolic.

8) Exodus 15:13 -- "Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed...." Yet another reference to redemption of people, which was so recently symbolized by the sacrificed lamb.

9) Exodus 23:18 -- "Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread, neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning." I find the double use here of "my sacrifice" intriguing.

10) The final chapters of Exodus all outline the plan of the tabernacle, with each of its pieces, including the system of sacrifices. It is symbolic (or typical) of the plan of redemption.

* * *

The above ten points are all taken from just the first two of Moses' books. I will not attempt to cover the others in this same post. However, I will make a note about Leviticus. I find this footnote in my study Bible:



Now, if as you say, Mike, Moses did not teach about the plan of redemption, and what the sacrifices symbolized, we are left with one of a few options:

1) God failed to communicate properly; or
2) Moses failed to do his duty; or
3) Such communication was unnecessary.

I cannot accept any of these options. Therefore, I am left with the option that God did indeed communicate properly to Moses, who communicated that which was necessary for us in a manner consistent with God's will.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.