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Re: Sinning Not #11082
10/21/04 10:17 PM
10/21/04 10:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Will, according to the Bible when will God blot out our record and memory of specific sins? What happens to them until that time?

Re: Sinning Not #11083
10/21/04 10:27 PM
10/21/04 10:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom wrote:
quote:
I don't look at the process as "sinning less and less." The way I look at the process is as becoming more and more like Christ.
Amen! That's what I've been saying all along. So long as we are born again, so long as our old man is dead and buried, so long as we are abiding in Christ, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, so long as we are partaking of the divine nature - we do not and cannot commit a known sin.

The growth we experience, in Christ, involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit from grace to grace, from faith to faith, from glory to glory - more and more unto the perfect day. We do not become more like Jesus by becoming less like Satan. The idea that we gradually outgrow our moral defects of character after we are born again is unbiblical.

Proverbs
4:18 But the path of the just [is] as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

John
1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Romans
1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

2 Corinthians
3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Re: Sinning Not #11084
10/21/04 10:52 PM
10/21/04 10:52 PM
Will  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
God blots out sins when:
1. A person has asked for forgiveness
2. The person gives their life to the Lord.

An unforgiven sin is the one that keeps you out of heaven.
God Bless,
Will

Re: Sinning Not #11085
10/22/04 12:10 AM
10/22/04 12:10 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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Will, if God blots out the record and memory of our specific sins the moment we are forgiven:

1. Why are we able to recall them afterwards.
2. What is the purpose of the investigative judgment?

FLB 212
As the books of record are opened in the judgment, the lives of all who have believed on Jesus come in review before God. Beginning with those who first lived upon the earth, our Advocate presents the cases of each successive generation, and closes with the living. Every name is mentioned, every case closely investigated. Names are accepted, names rejected. When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance. . . . {FLB 212.2}

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. . . . {FLB 212.3}

3 SG 135
Those who have delayed a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble, or at any future period. The righteous will not cease their earnest agonizing cries for deliverance. They cannot bring to mind any particular sins, but in their whole life they can see but little good. Their sins had gone beforehand to judgment, and pardon had been written. Their sins had been borne away into the land of forgetfulness, and they could not bring them to remembrance. {3SG 134.2}

Re: Sinning Not #11086
10/22/04 01:45 AM
10/22/04 01:45 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can they unwittingly violate the 3rd, the 6th, the 8th?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not if they are being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. The Sabbath is the only commandment that a born again believer can unwittingly violate, that is, without realizing it.

Christ amplified the law. A commandment can be broken by a look, by a thought.

There is no sin that can be committed that is not a violation of the law. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Do you really think it's not possible for a person to not have faith and not know it? Sorry for so many negatives. Let's try it this way. Do you really think it's not possible for a born again believer to doubt in any way without realizing it? If not, then that would mean all born again believers have perfect faith.

The law is exceedingly broad. In any way that we are not perfectly like Christ, we fall short. Any non-perfect person is unwittingly committing sins. Any commandment can be unwittingly broken.

Re: Sinning Not #11087
10/22/04 02:06 AM
10/22/04 02:06 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
I don't look at the process as "sinning less and less." The way I look at the process is as becoming more and more like Christ.
-------------------------------------------------

Amen! That's what I've been saying all along. So long as we are born again, so long as our old man is dead and buried, so long as we are abiding in Christ, so long as we are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, so long as we are partaking of the divine nature - we do not and cannot commit a known sin.

I'm sorry to disagree with you, since you're agreeing with me, but we are not saying the same thing. I am saying that the process of sanctification is becoming more and more like Christ by beholding God as He is revealed in Christ. You are saying we cannot commit a known sin if we abide in Christ. My emphasis is on beholding Christ. Your emphasis is on a theory you hold about not being able to commit known sins.

quote:
The growth we experience, in Christ, involves maturing in the fruits of the Spirit from grace to grace, from faith to faith, from glory to glory - more and more unto the perfect day.
Yes. We grow from more and more unto the perfect day as the light of God's love, His character, is shed abroad in our hearts. As we learn the truth about God, we are transformed into His likeness.

quote:
We do not become more like Jesus by becoming less like Satan.
If we become more and more like Christ, it is certainly true we will be becomming less and less like Satan. It looks like you are saying the means is not by becoming less and less like Satan. I agree with this. The means is by being transformed by beholding the loveliness of Christ.


quote:
The idea that we gradually outgrow our moral defects of character after we are born again is unbiblical.
I suppose it depends on how you define a moral defect in character. Since the law of God is written in the heart when one is born again, as soon as one is born again one is brought into harmony with God and with His law. The is the New Covenant. I agree with this.

However, when we are born again, we are not exactly like Christ. He is still better than we are. We do not perfectly reflect God's character. We have room for growth.

Re: Sinning Not #11088
10/22/04 03:30 AM
10/22/04 03:30 AM
Will  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
Mike I think we got our wires crossed:

quote:

Will, if God blots out the record and memory of our specific sins the moment we are forgiven:

The verses I quoted are talking about Him. God blots out the record of sin, and remembers them no more i.e. "Whats in the past will stay there", not that He erases our minds the moment we are converted which is what I wanted to clarify.
God Bless,
Will

Re: Sinning Not #11089
10/22/04 04:11 AM
10/22/04 04:11 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, some people think sin is so systemic, so pervasive, that born again believers always come short of the glory God, in one way or another, and that they will never be completely free of sin until Jesus returns. I'm not saying that's what you're saying.

I believe the Bible and the SOP teach that born again believers are morally sinless, that is, they do not and cannot commit a known sin while they are connected to Christ. That includes all aspects of known sin. I do not believe there is such a thing as unknown defective traits of character. Yes, there is plenty of room to grow in grace and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit, but such growth does not involve becoming less and less morally defective or imperfect.

We begin at rebirth where Jesus began at birth. In the same way Jesus grew in grace, mentally and morally, as He progressed from childhood to manhood, so too born again believers grow in grace, mentally and morally. With Jesus as our example, it is clear to me that the growth we experience, while abiding in Jesus, does not involve becoming more and more righteous by becoming less and less defective. Jesus was nothing like Satan, and neither are we, so long as we are connected to Him.

Re: Sinning Not #11090
10/22/04 04:16 AM
10/22/04 04:16 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Will, the Bible sasys God will not forget our sins until after they are blotted out during the investigative judgment. In the meantime, though, He doesn't throw them in our face if we take our eyes off Jesus and blow it. Thank you, Jesus.

Re: Sinning Not #11091
10/22/04 04:23 AM
10/22/04 04:23 AM
Will  Offline
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,332
BC, Canada
Amen to that!
God Bless,
Will

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