22. Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not;

WOW THATS INTERESTING! that when its talking about Jesus being sinless it says He had no guild in His mouth! Just like the 144,000.

and look at the next verse, remember when I said about Jesus saying "Be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect, love those who dont love you back?

Thats really what its saying isnt it?

23. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not;

...or am I stretching things?

See look,

Matthew 5:
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Hey look at this!

Hebrews 12

2: Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3: For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4: Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

I dont know if you are seeing what Im seeing in this... see the unselfishness thing again? Like you arent getting anything out of it... you love but they arent loving you back or even killing you.

Something else comes to mind, Job. Satan goes to God and says oh you consider Job PERFECT? well lets see what Job does if I take everything away from him and if he thinks it is you doing it to him.

So at the end, Job says "Though he slay me yet will I trust in Him and I will (still) maintain my ways before Him" I take that to mean he would still walk in God's Law even if he werent getting anything in return.

Doesnt Sister White somewhere equate Job with God's people in the end times?

I ask these things because sometimes I really find it difficult to know what God's will is in certain circumstances and if being sinless means Ive got to know THAT ...then I feel Im in trouble! But if its more like a heart thing, thats easier for me to take.

Claudia here's some more interested Bible verses in OT using "beguiled or guiled".


I had to look revile up since my vocabulary is not that elaborated.

Revile: to use abusive or contemptuous language in speaking to or about; call bad names

I don't think you're stretching it at all. I think when you are mistreated, that's when you're true colors comes forth. I think this is quite powerfull meaning to having Christ Perfect character.

WOW! In such circumstances as the worst persecution time in this world history, at the end of time, that's when Christ character will beam right out of us and make a sharp contrast with the evil character.

I believe it will be His character(His mind) that is put in us, via the mystery of God referred in Rev 10:7 and defined in Col 1:27. And that's how we will glorify Christ, and the world will know that God loves them.

Once the whole world will know the Truth about the Father, that he so loved the world, that he gave His only begotton son. This truth will be known through us, as we are put in prison, as we are accused, as we are killed. Then Christ will be able to come.

OH YEAH!! Right, Elle, when we are abused and persecuted, THEN everyone will see a final demonstration of the Great Controversy between God and Satan, so to speak and WE will show what God can do in full redemption of man, I guess you would call it... the contrast between us and Satan's people... kind of like a repeat miniature of Jesus on the Cross and the wicked people who were cruficying Him and reviling Him?

This makes me think of something else, I was just reading about "It is FINISHED" and how in Desire of Ages, Ellen White said thats not only talking about the death of Christ on the Cross but the whole Great Controversy was in a sense finished because everyone could at that time see God's character of love verses Satan's selfish wicked hateful character.


does this have anything to do with that? since it says "finished"?
I dont really know anything about the plagues and angels and all of that, but remember how it calls it the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS?

I was thinking of something either Jones or Waggoner said ..how when at the end God tests us and we say something like "I would rather have Jesus than that (sin) it is finished and God's Seal will be placed upon us? Not sure if it actually says finished.

But isnt that the Mystery of godliness? I know Im probably going all over the place but my mind tends to connect Bible verses, etc together. See how it says the mystery of God is finished? In Rv. 10:7 is that talking about us?

Jn:19:30: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Jn:17:4: I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Rv:10:7: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

thank you for the bible study, ladies! it was highly appreciated!

Do you think Sister White's description above is indicative of daily life? Or, do you think she's describing a unique, once-in-a-lifetime scenario? IOW, do sincere Christians spend most of their time feeling weak and unworthy and focused on the fact they've accomplished very little good? If so, it hardly seems like a desirable path. Also, where do the following insights fit in?

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

when i read the messenger of the Lords personal struggles i get the definite impression that she felt "weak and unworthy and focused on the fact they've accomplished very little good", most of her life. but i dont mean that to imply that she lived in a negative state her whole life.

the way you have stated it i get the picture that we can think we are doing quite well and that would be all right. correct me if im wrong. if that is your picture, is that a safe picture? can i feel i am living up, or measuring up, to all that i should be?

What makes Christians feel unworthy is seeing Jesus Christ.

An ignominious death is not really desirable either. But God's will sometimes leads us down undesirable paths.


Read that passage and see the conditions under which we see the "broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature" and "our own moral deformity." It doesn't just happen during some apocalyptic time; it happens whenever there is a "deep-seated love for Jesus" and when the "vivifying influence of the Spirit of God" arouses us.


We claim these promises, not because we see it, not because we feel it, but because we need it and God has promised it.


The Christian is not dependent on what he sees or what he feels. His dependence is on God's word. If God said, we believe it, and that's good enough for us.

We walk in the light we have, doing the best we can, and let God take care of the results.

So why go through this "undesirable" phase?


If we see the results of NOT esteeming ourselves to highly, and the dangers we avoid, perhaps we would find the experience more desirable.

We really do need to review SC.

this is looking like a really good thread!! i hope it doesnt die out.