as I said --



I clearly point to the "many more years" problem that you are simply choosing to "completely ignore" in your question. A key detail that solves your question before it even gets started... because (obviously) your question "needs many more years" to remove the weapon of swords from common use.

I keep pointing this out and you keep refusing to address it. I find the logic in that approach somewhat illusive.

Even more importantly -- there does not exist a "funny kind of exegesis" for text-A that is in the form of "proof by puzzle" (no matter how simple) of text-B.

Your argument remains stuck then - at the point of text-A (GC 673, EW294) where we observe that the literary work itself is not written in a foreign language nor is it using apocalyptic symbols, nor is it loaded symbols and simile such as "Swords fall LIKE straws". We simply accept the text as it reads.

in Christ,

Bob

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Bobryan:

As it was in the days of Noah...

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Sings of the Times: Feb 27, 1879

As far as human wisdom could see, the event predicted by Noah was not likely to occur. Rain had never fallen; a mist or dew had watered the earth. …

The Lord had given the warning, and that was enough for Noah. The arguments of the philosophers were nothing to him, when the message of God was sounding in his ears, "The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth." {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 14}

Noah, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house. He had that fear which should characterize the life of every Christian. The perfect faith of Noah intensified his fear. The threatened wrath of God, which was to fall upon man and beast, and upon the earth, led him to prepare the ark. His faith, and his fear of God's anger, produced obedience. Noah did not hesitate to obey God. He urged no excuse, that the labor of building that ark was great and expensive. He believed God, and invested in the ark all that he possessed, while the wicked world scoffed and made themselves merry at the deluded old man. {ST, February 27, 1879 par. 15}

They had more opportunity for their unbelief and mockery, because God did not at once carry out his purpose. But the lapse of time did not cause the faith of Noah to waver;

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Curiously enough - this fits perfectly with the actual unchanged text of GC672-673 and EW294.

in Christ,

Bob

This might be "spun" to the idea that the same gentle cloud of light and warmth to the Israelites was very harsh to Egyptians because they liked darkness and cold.

This might be "spun" to the idea that the protecting grace of God in supplying food and shelter and protection to the saints in the times of trouble - would kill the wicked because the wicked do not like food and shelter.

But such "spinning" is silly.

So also - the light and grace of God protecting the saints FROM the lake of Fire is NOT the same "experience" of the wicked. Conversly the wickedare being SUBJECTED to the very devouring flames that God is sparing the righteous FROM.

The glory of God comes in judgment to the wicked and in acceptance and protection to the righteous just as we see with the pillar of fire -- distinction between how it blesses the Israelites while fending off and threatening the Egyptians.

in Christ,

Bob

Of course God punishes, in Ezekiel chapter 9 He sends His destroying angels to kill the wicked.

and the Lake of fire, the wicked dont just wander over to it...

accidentally...

Rv:20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mt:13:
40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Bob, I don't understand your answer to the swords question. Were they literal or not?

Thank you, Claudia, for reminding us of the obvious. sometimes discussions become so convoluted we cannot see the forest for the trees. You're right, God will employ fire to punish the wicked according to their sinfulness. No doubt about it. True, God is loathe to punish. He is working very hard to woo and win our hearts and allegiance. But there comes a time when mercy stops and justice and judgment begins. God will not be trifled with. Paul is too clear to misunderstand:

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Do you agree that in the case Jews and Romans in 70 AD "the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty" involved humans killing each other? If so, do you think this example implies God will punish the wicked at the end of time by permitting them to kill each other? For example, do you seea parallel in the following passage?

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Bob, it appears Tom believes the "fire" described in these passages is symbolic of the internal torment the wicked experience when the stand before the Great White Throne. Of course one cannot be sure what he believes since he is not forthcoming.

"As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed." {GC 666.2} From what I've been able to piece together, Tom seems to think Ellen applies the word "fire" in the following passage to this experience.

"Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. . . Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds."

MM, I thought you said you changed your mind about the wicked's being burned by fire. I'm confused about what you think now.

What does this mean? God decides He's had enough? So He lashes out in righteous indignation? Something like that?



How about something like the above? God cannot be trifled with means that His counsels may not be set at naught with impunity, as doing so causes His special presence and protection to be withdrawn.